Upgrading my X10 system ...

Hi,

Our house is quite large (±6500 sf) and makes great use of the X10 technology: ±90 circuits all controlled by X10 wall transmitters and LM465 modules.

Since 1991, I have been a happy user of this system. Overtime, I experienced a few ghost signal problems for which I always found a solution. We live on the country, so ghost signals always originates from our house and not from the far neighbours.

My actual problem is more of concern about the future of my setup in relation with the value of our house. What are my options for the future or what will they be for a perspective buyer that will have to consider if this legacy system is an asset or not ?

My house is natively wired for X10, meaning that every circuit (±90) of light of our house is wired too facilitate the use of X10 modules and technology. That cost a-lot originally but has proven a very good investment. In short, each circuit are directed to a gray box in the basement that accommodates 4 x LM465 modules. All those modules are controlled in each room by a X10 wall transmitter that has 1 to 4 buttons, each button controlling a specific circuit.

This being said, what are my serious technology options (Insteon, Zigbee, Z-wave, ...) ? I want to modernise the system but also want to make the best use of the actual set up. I would prefer using the same infrastructure (the wall transmitters's wire and boxes, the LM465 grey box). Rewiring everything is not what I would like to do, but do I have to ? Is there a newer technology that will be more efficient and for which I would only have to replace my LM465 modules and the actual wall transmitters ?

Thanks for helping me finding an upgrade path.

Can you post a photo of one of the boxes that the LM465 is installed in? I want to see how hard it would be to use something more current in those boxes.

Also, how are the wall transmitters mounted? Is it a wall box with power? Or any wiring?

The grey box in the basement accommodates up to 4 x LM465 modules ... so any modules with a similar size would fit ... and be electrified as well. The wall transmitter are of course wired (electrified) and fit in a regular electrical outlet accommodating a normal regular size switch.

See the pictures here.

I'll be honest, if I saw that wiring I wouldn't buy that house. I'm not sure that would even pass the electrical code in the US. Having plugin modules wired into the middle of a lighting circuit is very unusual. Possibly even unique.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be all that hard to convert it to something like Lutron, which uses wall switch dimmers. Each of those (huge) gray boxes could be replaced with a single deep quad switch box with four dimmers (or switches, in any combination). Or you could use Lutron Wall Power Modules, which fit six dimmers into one quad switch box. All without changing wiring elsewhere, just on that plywood.

Then replacing the actual wall keypads with Lutron keypads is trivial. And now you have a completely modern, commercial quality lighting system.

How many actual LM465s do you have? I only see 15 on that wall.

I use ±85 alphanumeric code (A1, A2, ..... ) ... so ±85 LM465 modules, and there is room for more. From those ±85 circuit, ±50 are with the grey box system and the other 35 are plugged in regular wall outlets.

I don't use them, so need someone else to chime in, but I would think the inline modules could be wired directly into the boxes. I know INSTEON has some for direct wire. Perhaps Z-Wave equivalents exist too.

But that would be a LOT of z-wave modules in a very small space -- anyone know if that would even work? I imagine it might be a detriment to have that many neighbors and that much RF in that small of a space??

I don't use them, so need someone else to chime in, but I would think the inline modules could be wired directly into the boxes.

I'm just not sure there's any good way to mount them inside a box like that. But I guess with the in-line modules it doesn't really matter.

Taking into account the number of different circuit that I have, some technologies are probably not a good system to use ?

Taking into account the number of different circuit that I have, some technologies are probably not a good system to use ?

Insteon would probably be fine, since X10 is working reasonably well for you. Z-wave might be an issue with that many devices, I don't really know. Lutron would be fine, it's designed for much larger systems than you have. Lutron and Z-wave would be the best supported by high-end automation systems (other than Indigo).

That will help me focus on the final possibilities. Thank you.

Do I understand that Lutron and Z-Wave will both use my actual wall transmitter to connect their own and to use them in a mesh network to propagate their RF signals ?

There are other high end lighting systems out there that would probably work with your wiring setup, but none that have integration with Indigo (that I know of).

With the number of circuits you have, you need to be looking a Lutron's Radio Ra 2 or better. The Caseta system limit is something like 30 dimmers.

Thanks again.

That will help me focus on the final possibilities. Thank you.

Do I understand that Lutron and Z-Wave will both use my actual wall transmitter to connect their own and to use them in a mesh network to propagate their RF signals ?

Both those systems have their own wall mount keypads, if that what you mean. They won't use the X10 keypads.

Z-Wave does a mesh-like system, so the keypads are repeaters.

Lutron does not do mesh, the keypads talk to/from the Lutron hub (repeater in RRa2 parlance). Depending on the layout of your house, you may need Aux Repeaters to cover the entire house. You would need to be able to pull wire to them. Or re-purpose some existing wiring, like Cat-5. I can cover my house with two main repeaters and no aux repeaters. But using two mains requires Lutron's second level training course, which is a bit of a pain to attend. But there are ways around that. If you're interested in Lutron, I recommend you take their on-line (free) training as an intro. See http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Education-T ... nline.aspx

Do I understand that Lutron and Z-Wave will both use my actual wall transmitter to connect their own and to use them in a mesh network to propagate their RF signals ?

Technically you could make this work with Indigo as a middle-man between the X10 and other technology... however, I think the delay of routing the signals is not going to be ideal (not specific to Indigo, any hub which connects the two would be that way). It wouldn't "feel" right to the occupant; I think you probably are going to need to replace the controlling switches to match the new technology.

Having said that, I you could always leave the system as-is if it is working for you and update with more modern touches elsewhere. Indigo would work with the X10 and allow you to bridge the non-lighting (more modern) elements you want to integrate. Such as touchscreen panels, maybe temp control, etc. while leaving the lighting at X10.

If a system is working well, I don't know that the majority of buyers will know or even care about the technology. Not enough to justify swapping it out "just in case" at least. Just MHO.

Those domotic system don't please everybody. They are a great pleasure if you like to play around with that stuff. That not everybody for sure.

The fact that the system works is also great, but the additional idea that it can be upgraded to a great new technology at a reasonable cost is probably of great interest for a buyer..

Thanks anyway for dropping in your comments.