Not Complaining just asking for insight.

Posted on
Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:37 pm
Sharek326 offline
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Not Complaining just asking for insight.

Good Evening

I recently read the Blog Post for the 2021 releases and was hoping I can ask a few questions …General ones. But before I do please don’t misunderstand anything I say as I am not looking for conflict or talking down anything in a negative way. I am merely asking these things for my own clarifications.

I’ll start by saying I have been with Indigo 6 or 7 years now and while I tinkered here and there with some other systems for the most part Indigo has always seemed to check most my boxes so I have stuck with it. Each year I would see one or two disgruntled customers wanting more and the posts would turn into some sort of flaming post and again that’s not the objective here.

In recent months I have struggled internally with my Home Automation direction. I think that comes from my personal belief of what Home Automation means to me. In November my subscription expired and I been meaning to make a similar post to the one I am making now. See I am struggling with should I renew. I am looking for a reason to fall in love with the Home Automation Scene again and I am feeling like its been stale lately. You see these amazing commercials (Fibaro) of all that Home Automation has to offer but in reality it doesn’t often work in such an elegant way.

My most recently struggle in the past few months is the feeling that the industry is passing my system by. By that I mean many of latest and greatest toys coming to market are taking years if at all to be officially supported by Indigo. Don’t get me wrong Indigo probably has some of the sharpest developers in its community bringing fantastic plugins to the system. My struggle is sometimes these plugins add great functionality and then become unsupported. Again not often but it had happened. I have always hoped that many of the core functions become an officially supported (like Itunes) plugin. Other core functions that I feel are important to the system have yet to have any real official development like Native Energy Consumption reporting. Again plugins have been developed but some are outside the system while others are just to complicated and break to easy leaving one to just abandon the idea.

When I read the recent blog I got the interpretation the April’s big updates will be adding functionality to allow other developers to build functionality instead of building a cradle to grave solution internally. Again maybe I am misunderstanding as I am not a developer. I just am interrupting the features being added to being geared toward developers building plugins more and less toward the end user who is wanting core functionality built in or out of box.

Again I mean no disrespect and my general question is will indigo be adding true native core functionality in the coming year. Voice control….Push Notification…Energy Reporting… things like this or will these features still rely on 3rd parties for solutions?

Posted on
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:14 pm
matt (support) offline
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Re: Not Complaining just asking for insight.

Thanks for the post. I'll try to shed some light both on what is going on and the direction we are headed.

First, as you've noticed, there has been an explosion in HA hardware the last several years that, unfortunately but predictably, have different incompatible technologies and APIs. Because we are very much resource limited there is no way we can add native support for everything, so we've really focused on creating the most powerful and robust plugin architecture possible to enable others to help us. So far I believe we've succeeded on the robust part, but still have some gaps to fill in on the power/functionality side of the plugin API (namely more native device types, better Restful API, ability for plugins to define control UI, etc.).

One of the bigger features, which requires a lot of development (we started it several months ago) and QA across multiple pieces (Indigo Server, UI, our backend Web server), is support for OAuth authentication that hardware for many of the cloud based APIs require. This will allow for better integration with a lot of hardware without requiring "bridge" type plugins that emulate other controlling hardware. With that we are hoping to add native Alexa support and are working with a plugin developer for Google Home support. Point being, this big development area will both help plugin developers and will also lead to new native functionality we include/support directly.

Some of the features you mentioned wanting core support for (energy consumption reporting/graphing, better notification support, etc.) are definitely on the feature request list and, while we don't want to give any additional time estimates other than was was talked about in our blog, we do think they are essential to a home automation platform. In general Indigo's control UI (from both the Web and Indigo Touch) needs a makeover and needs to expose an additional level of control (ex: for custom plugin devices) and status information (including energy monitoring/graphs/etc.). Point being, we definitely recognize this as a feature weak area of Indigo currently.

In general, Indigo tends not to have all the features (and bells/whistles) of other platforms and at times we can be slow implementing new hardware support, but our biggest focus is always on reliability and usability of the functionality we do have. The last several years we've added the additional priority of the plugin architecture and supporting our plugin developers, as that will be the only way that Indigo can truly integrate all the different disparate hardware (Apple, Google, Amazon, Z-Wave, ZigBee, etc.) that continues to come to market.

I'm not sure that will adequately answer your questions / concerns, but my main point is that we recognize there hasn't been a lot of natively included new functionality in Indigo lately (aside from a lot of Z-Wave improvements, and hardware specific actions). We do plan on including more native functionality, but also have to recognize our limited resources and priorities of continuing to build out the plugin architecture which will allow for both better cloud based hardware integration and more native feeling functionality to be added.

Image

Posted on
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:24 pm
jltnol offline
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Re: Not Complaining just asking for insight.

Adding my own worthless 2¢s worth-
Indigo can truly integrate all the different disparate hardware (Apple, Google, Amazon, Z-Wave, ZigBee, etc.) that continues to come to market.

In my very humble opinion, Indigo's ability to incorporate all these different devices into a central "command and control" structure is its biggest asset, and that is something that those "disparate hardware" platforms will almost never be able to do as well.

In a way, the current state of affairs of HA is like the Betamax vs VHS wars of the '80s. Add in several varieties of 8mm, VHS-C and others, and you get the idea. You needed a separate deck to play each format. You mentioned the "latest and greatest toys coming to market" not being supported in Indigo. I won't disagree with you, but I'm guessing most of those new toys are like new video tape formats... they all do the job but are not compatible with each other. Indigo is the video deck that can play and record them all! Maybe not the second they come to market, but usually very soon.

(Personally, I think just like the video tape wars went away, so too will all these automation format/protocol wars as well. With any luck, we'll end up with DVD's.... If you have a DVD disc (=device, like a switch) and a DVD player (=controller, like Indigo), it will just WORK. And when the technology outpaces DVD's the next step up will be Blu-Ray's...and then up to 4KUHD's, and beyond. Every new iteration will bring more functionality and detail, but will still be compatible with what came before. But sadly, that will be years off.)

Could things be better? Could improvements be made more quickly? Could plugins be undated more frequently? Of course! I've got my own personal "wish list", but even without the things I'd love Indigo to have, not having them hasn't prevented me from setting up my HA system exactly the way I want it to be. Add in the never-ever ending, undying support of users here, who have been of endless benefit to me and others, and Indigo's almost indestructible computer code.... I just ever crashes... and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything close to it now or in the near future.

Posted on
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:48 pm
Sharek326 offline
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Re: Not Complaining just asking for insight.

jltnol wrote:
Could things be better? Could improvements be made more quickly? Could plugins be undated more frequently?


Again the idea behind my original post wasn't to incite any type of negative spin nor compare Home Automation to the Video Recording Wars of the 80's (for the record you left out Video Disc Players). It was an attempt to try to clarify for my own piece of mind that the investment I make in building out my Home System will bare any fruit of my labor.

I was hoping to discover a sense of direction that the developers had planned to go in the near future because the announced updates really are of no direct benefit to me or really many of the end users without further development And my ask was would Indigo be developing more core function built in this year or would they be relying on plugin developers to take the ball and run with it.

The new toys comment I made in the originally post was an unfair statement and I should rephrase that as I don't think it was making the point I was going for. Yes a lot of new things come to market yearly and Indigo only has Matt & Jay driving the core development so that wasn't fair of me to imply they can keep up with the never ending list of new. I think the point I was trying to make is the new can become a standard very quickly. For example we have had Zwave awhile now and with it many of the devices report energy use. The ability to graph it has been there for as long as the device and zwave have. Many have asked for something native and it has been added to the list for a long time now. But nothing native has every come. Yet this is a standard in just about every platform on the market. It really is a core foundation of many people wanting to get into Home Automation. The ability to reduce energy costs. But we have no built in way to show you it's working.

I have all the respect in the world for many of the 3rd Party Developers and many of them have helped me personally in problems I have had. I just would like core functionality built directly into the core without relying on bridging. I have had more than a few plugins fall to the waste side because people leave, become busy or just don't feel like doing it any longer.

So yes I couldn't agree more the community is second to none. The developers designing the 3rd Party Plugins are brilliant. Matt & Jay are amazing guys doing incredible things and walking a tight rope to produce a great product that people will want to buy. I just think updates can't just be appealing to the people who develop solely because this VHS race compared it to can become the ZUNE really quick.

Posted on
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:41 am
RogueProeliator offline
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Re: Not Complaining just asking for insight.

I have all the respect in the world for many of the 3rd Party Developers and many of them have helped me personally in problems I have had. I just would like core functionality built directly into the core without relying on bridging. I have had more than a few plugins fall to the waste side because people leave, become busy or just don't feel like doing it any longer.

If you look closely, nearly all the successful HA platforms out there are relying on 3rd party plugins for support. Many advertise support in marketing and it appears to be first party but if you dig deeper they are relying on plugin developers. I would expect they have the same potential issues there, though perhaps they could have a larger community contributing to individual plugins.

One thing that has happened a little recently, I've noticed, is that abandoned plugins are more frequently being adopted by the community for support. More of this needs to happen to make people comfortable with relying on plugins. This isn't directed at you in terms of making people comfortable -- I think most of us have had plugins that we rely on either abandoned for one reason or another. Developer leaves, loses access to his/her development hardware, loses interest, etc. If I am not mistaken, Matt/Jay have pulled in several plugins when developers have abandoned and given permission to do so and which a plugin developer helps maintain.

I don't want to speak for them, but from what I've seen as a long term user, plugin and client developer, the pace of development of Indigo is pretty consistent. Not in terms of releases/dates, but "level of effort" of things added. Why is that important? Well, I think it means the general paradigm / business model / whatever you want to call it is going to continue in terms of enabling and relying on plugin developers and community support. Short of them hiring additional help or contracting work out, I think "what you see is what you get" in terms of the model. This is not any kind of critique on them nor on your feelings... have to just decide what you are comfortable with for you.

Adam

Posted on
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:54 am
Sharek326 offline
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Re: Not Complaining just asking for insight.

RogueProeliator wrote:
If you look closely, nearly all the successful HA platforms out there are relying on 3rd party plugins for support. Many advertise support in marketing and it appears to be first party but if you dig deeper they are relying on plugin developers. I would expect they have the same potential issues there, though perhaps they could have a larger community contributing to individual plugins.


You are right about that Rogue. I think just about every platform relies on 3rd to really build out functionality. I guess my approach to it may differ from others. I really believe the core functionality of the system should be embedded in the core of the program.

An example of what I mean by core would be Zwave is core in my opinion. It's at the root of the system and all systems work around it. Being able to automate or trigger events and schedule event again would be core functionality. And again ill go back to Energy Reporting only because I truly believe this is a core function. Now that we have the devices in Zwave and we are triggering them and automating them it makes sense the reporting usage is a core function.

I think 3rd party plugins defiantly have their place in the system but should really be for more of the small knit groups that would use that particular thing. For example your Plex Server Plugin. I used it from the beginning and its solid (awesome work as always). But it speaks to a small group and that works. Kodi users may develop something else. Arming my DSC panel makes sense to use 3rd Party since many people may have something else.

Again my original post was hoping that maybe as each update would come throughout the year we could not only release something appealing to developers but also something off the end user wish list natively. Matt did explain some of the thought behind some of the updates and they make sense. The Touch app is pretty much useless in it current state aside from a quick flip on / off of a light.

I mention that I had tinkered and tried other systems for more or less testing purposes. I even paid and went through the 3 day training course to become a Fibaro installer just to understand the system better. I have always stayed with Indigo regardless because it has always accomplished the core automation function. But I would be lying if I said I didn't want it to do more or what other systems are doing already.

Posted on
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:22 pm
howartp offline
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Re: Not Complaining just asking for insight.

Out of interest, what are you wanting of energy monitoring?

I’ve a plugin for UK house energy monitoring that I put a lot of time into, including graphing, but got fed up of developing it when there was less than zero interest on the forum and my time was best used elsewhere.

It won’t do what you want, but might be a basis for changing direction to something more globally useful than UK utility energy.

Peter


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Posted on
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:00 pm
Sharek326 offline
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Re: Not Complaining just asking for insight.

Hey howartp

Thanks for the response. For me in regard to Energy Monitoring, I think it would be nice to be able to see reporting over time. Energy Consumption.....monthly cost per device etc. A robust was to display daily Monthly and maybe even yearly usage based on devices....maybe rooms etc.

We have the energy reporting in the zwave devices supported and have the ability to also reset them based on a scheduled trigger. To me thats a feature only half developed if we have to way to display it. I know we have a few plugins like Grafana that can do similar but again it requires adding in another external database and relies on reporting outside of Indigo via webpages.

The features should be able to be displayed inside control pages or reporting somehow.

I am not saying Fibaro is better but in regards to this feature they have it locked down you can view energy over time cost of consumption etc. Nice feature

Posted on
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:45 pm
howartp offline
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Re: Not Complaining just asking for insight.

Just so I can find it, I’ve put myself a reminder over here:

Energy reporting across Indigo
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic? ... source=app

It’s where the original plugin was going that I’ve all but abandoned.


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