Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

Posted on
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:53 pm
spiv offline
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Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

Big announcement today that Apple, Google, others may finally come together on a true industry-wide smarthome standard.

If this finally happens (unlike previous attempts), it sure makes Zigbee look like the big winner instead of Z-Wave.

They've got Philips Hue, Apple, Google (Nest and Ring too), Samsung, and just about every major Zigbee and home automation company involved.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/12/ ... -standard/

https://www.connectedhomeip.com

Posted on
Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:41 pm
jay (support) offline
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

See: viewtopic.php?f=128&t=23350 and viewtopic.php?f=132&t=23351

spiv wrote:
sure makes Zigbee look like the big winner instead of Z-Wave.


I don't see how Zigbee is in any way a winner. This new collaboration is all IP based, and Zigbee isn't. From an API perspective, we'll see where that lands, but it seems unlikely that it would be based on anything the Zigbee alliance put out. Zigbee's transport isn't listed at all (WiFi, Thread (rather than Zigbee) over 802.15.4, and BLE are specifically called out).

If anything, both Z-Wave and Zigbee will likely end up being the big losers, in that standard WiFi and IP-based APIs are the goal - which neither of those older technologies use. And in any event, Zigbee and Z-Wave are both basically controlled by Silicon Labs (as a heavy influencer in the former and the outright owner of the latter) - and their main interest is providing silicon. I'm sure they will be quite happy to continue to provide the hardware for WiFi, 802.15.4, and Bluetooth without having to deal with application level developers.

But, I say all this with the expectation that it's going to be years before anything comes of it (if anything actually does). Maybe it's time, and I certainly welcome it. But these things have come and gone in the past...

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Posted on
Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:45 pm
spiv offline
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

As I read it, it says Google is contributing Weave and Thread support.

First effort is Wi-Fi and BLE, but they say they will be supporting Zigbee radios and Zigbee alliance.

Another way to sum up "Google trying for the Nth time to push Weave and Thread. This time it might stick if they are really willing to make Google devices compatible with Apple's ecosystem to get Apple's buy-in"

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Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:25 pm
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

spiv wrote:
it sure makes Zigbee look like the big winner instead of Z-Wave.

No reason that Z-Wave couldn't also join the standards group.

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Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:47 pm
jay (support) offline
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

spiv wrote:
As I read it, it says Google is contributing Weave and Thread support.


Right - but that's not Zigbee...

spiv wrote:
First effort is Wi-Fi and BLE, but they say they will be supporting Zigbee radios and Zigbee alliance.


Zigbee radios are just 802.15.4, which is an open standard upon which Thread is built. The "secret sauce" from Zigbee is their APIs, which I don't expect will be used extensively (it was one of the issues barring broad Zigbee adoption in the first place). Zigbee LightLink was the only one with any real adoption, but as an API it wasn't great (mainly because it was designed by hardware guys, not by software guys). Hopefully, Apple, Google, and Amazon will bring some sense to the API design that's always been the biggest pitfall of HA technology stacks.

spiv wrote:
Another way to sum up "Google trying for the Nth time to push Weave and Thread. This time it might stick if they are really willing to make Google devices compatible with Apple's ecosystem to get Apple's buy-in"


It certainly will be interesting to see what happens.

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Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:50 pm
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

jalves wrote:
spiv wrote:
it sure makes Zigbee look like the big winner instead of Z-Wave.

No reason that Z-Wave couldn't also join the standards group.


Z-Wave is owned by Silicon Labs, who has already agreed to join. Z-Wave is a likely a legacy product for them as it's probably more cost efficient to focus on a smaller set of hardware (WiFi, 802.15.4, and BLE). Selling hardware (i.e. chips and boards) is their business.

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Posted on
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:07 pm
spiv offline
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

Actually, Z-Wave chipset is a big money maker for Silicon Labs. They have a monopoly and hardware manufacturers have no other source.

I would expect them to pay lip service but privately try everything they can to keep Z-Wave strong and delay broader adoption of Zigbee hardware.

Some product manufacturers have told me privately they relish not having to deal with Z-Wave in the long run and will push for anything-but-Z-Wave if they can.

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Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:43 pm
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

spiv wrote:
Actually, Z-Wave chipset is a big money maker for Silicon Labs.


Really? I couldn't find any breakdown of their IoT revenue by product line. Where'd you find that information? I'd be super interested in that information...

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Posted on
Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:52 pm
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

On a side note to this, apparently Apple has also open sourced the HomeKit ADK. My basic understanding of that is it effectively gives HomeBridge a guaranteed future and with potentially far less issues.


https://github.com/apple/HomeKitADK?files=1

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Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:14 pm
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

But, I say all this with the expectation that it's going to be years before anything comes of it (if anything actually does). Maybe it's time, and I certainly welcome it. But these things have come and gone in the past...

I'm with you, Jay... how many times have we seen many of these same companies attempt standards groups which seemed more either to drive only their agenda, get insights on other company's direction, or try and give lip service to regulators to look like they are working with others?

I don't doubt that something could come of it... just not holding my breath.

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Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:23 am
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

durosity wrote:
On a side note to this, apparently Apple has also open sourced the HomeKit ADK. My basic understanding of that is it effectively gives HomeBridge a guaranteed future and with potentially far less issues.


https://github.com/apple/HomeKitADK?files=1


Too bad that we can't use it ourselves. Apple continues to totally block software vendors from participating in HomeKit... :( :roll:

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Posted on
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:11 am
spiv offline
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

jay (support) wrote:
spiv wrote:
Actually, Z-Wave chipset is a big money maker for Silicon Labs.


Really? I couldn't find any breakdown of their IoT revenue by product line. Where'd you find that information? I'd be super interested in that information...


I don't have published data - only anecdotal info from an OEM buying chipsets from them.

Posted on
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:12 am
spiv offline
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

Ars Technica has a little more detail in their analysis:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/12 ... -standard/

"for starters, there will be three main network standards supported by the new project. "The goal of the first specification release will be Wi-Fi, up to and including 802.11ax (aka Wi-Fi 6)... Thread over 802.15.4-2006 at 2.4 GHz; and IP implementations for Bluetooth Low Energy, versions 4.1, 4.2, and 5.0 for the network and physical wireless protocols."

I agree this is yet another thing to watch and see if it comes to fruition eventually or falls off the flat earth as previous efforts nearly always do.

Posted on
Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:36 am
spiv offline
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

This is fun!

Z-Wave just counterpunched back. Apparently, this was aimed for CES, but they released it now because of the CHIPS announcement

https://www.silabs.com/community/blog.e ... 26467066=1

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Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:11 pm
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Re: Zigbee support - Apple, Google pushing it now

spiv wrote:
This is fun!

Z-Wave just counterpunched back. Apparently, this was aimed for CES, but they released it now because of the CHIPS announcement


:lol: I see it not so much a counterpunch as Silicon Labs clarifying their position (i.e. hedging their bets):

  • They are now out of the proprietary application-level standards business (handing that off on the Z-Wave alliance) so they can be seen as impartial in the CHIP WG (or CHoIP if they go with that).
  • They'll continue to make Z-Wave chipsets while allowing others to compete with them.
  • If CHIP turns out to be the future, they can dodge any responsibility of "killing Z-Wave" because they are no longer the only supplier of Z-Wave chips or the "owner" of the Z-Wave standard.
  • They position themselves as the premier silicon/chip provider for CHIP technologies by being an initial contributing member of the working group. Notice from the CHIP announcement that they are one of only 2 silicon manufacturers listed, and they are (arguably) the most experienced of the two.

Very smart business move by Silicon Labs, who will likely end up a (the?) winner in all of this regardless of the outcome.

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