PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

Posted on
Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:41 pm
akimball offline
User avatar
Posts: 434
Joined: Aug 07, 2013
Location: Sandy, Utah

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

Perhaps I’m not understanding the whitepaper. In the INSTEON pdf white paper, “Insteon - the Details,” on page 36 it mentions that standard packets require 6 zero crossings and extended packets 13 crossings (a different issue than latency), but then on page 37 where it talks about rf, they state the entire rf message is sent....entirely. No wait for zero crossings. So even if an rf signal is delayed a bit (latent) it has more chance to outrun the power-line sent signals because of no wait time on zero-crossing packet synchronization. On page 40, it does mention that the start of all rf signals are synced to the household zero crossing phase...every 120th second.

So I don’t understand. Is your info about the hop delay imperical? Because in theory, wireless should beat power-line every time. Unless the white paper isn’t correct that is...or if I’m missing something else.
Last edited by akimball on Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.

-Al

Posted on
Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:45 pm
jay (support) offline
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 14156
Joined: Mar 19, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

Fxguy wrote:
I performed the re-sync but still getting buttons on and button off messages from a device that’s not in the database.


Sometimes Insteon devices that are failing will report erroneous information like this. You might start by identifying older devices and disabling them (unplug if you can, air-gap if they are in-wall). I had a failing SwitchLinc a couple of years ago that was reporting false data.

Jay (Indigo Support)
Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn

Posted on
Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:50 pm
lanbrown offline
Posts: 277
Joined: Sep 26, 2017

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

akimball wrote:
Perhaps I’m not understanding the whitepaper.


Don't trust their whitepaper. It has been shown that it is wrong.

Posted on
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:08 pm
matt (support) offline
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 18377
Joined: Jan 27, 2003
Location: Texas

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

It has been a long while since I've done speed testing, but I'm pretty sure I saw noticeably longer define/sync times when using the 2448a7 compared to the 2413U. Not 100% positive though.

Image

Posted on
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:23 pm
akimball offline
User avatar
Posts: 434
Joined: Aug 07, 2013
Location: Sandy, Utah

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

Thanks for the discussion. There really are a whole bunch of factors but your imperical work is better than my theory.

Lanbrown, I’ve seen the youtube video’s that claim insteon is not at all like their white paper, but on one point alone they claim 905-MHz operation in the youtube video....insteon’s white paper gives a range of frequencies that covers this data point, so the guys trying to make the protocol look fabricated cross a line at times. Keep in mind these guys are trying to sound the alarm regarding the security nature and they get upset when insteon deviates from the public domain knowledge. My soft opinion is if it was so fabricated it wouldn’t really work at all and anyone who thinks a team of hackers will pull up to your door with nothing but a computer to steal the family jewels haven’t heard of good neighbors, dogs, guns, or other very effective security measures like ge or honeywell alarm systems. Insteon is used to enhance and is not the whole thing. Who cares about the front door lock when you can simply kick in the door?

-Al

Posted on
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:40 pm
lanbrown offline
Posts: 277
Joined: Sep 26, 2017

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

But when the whitepaper is just wrong, you wonder what else is wrong and how compatibility works. Given that their modems are poorly made, their whitepaper is wrong, their security is severely lacking and they have done nothing about any of their deficiencies of which they have had ample opportunity to, I think it is quite clear where they stand.

Another way to put it, if people keep buying, why change! Why make a modem that will last if they can keep selling the current ones and have repeat customers when the modem goes belly up?

Posted on
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:48 pm
akimball offline
User avatar
Posts: 434
Joined: Aug 07, 2013
Location: Sandy, Utah

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

Compatibility with x10 seems okay...that existed when insteon was invented, and in the history of insteon I doubt security was a concern in the beginning.

But I still don’t consider it a problem if the product does what I need it to do. My big exception is that the powerlinc and any insteon hub products are key focal points.

As an indigo customer, we have access to multiple protocols, hue, x10, zwave, insteon, others. The beauty of this approach is being able to transition over time to a more reliable protocol as they are added. Anything that needs security can use the best secure protocol supported by Indigo. I really don’t know how many insteon devices i have anymore....more than 100. Probably 150 or so. 20KPL’s alone...I did count those recently. But as long as I have a reliable mac and reliable modem...it just works for me.

-Al

Posted on
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:46 pm
Fxguy offline
Posts: 114
Joined: Mar 24, 2011

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

So far it seems to be working ok. There is a barely perceptible delay in signal transmission but again, barely notice it. It seems to have resolved the erroneous messages (which perhaps were just delayed coming through) with a complete re-sync.

Posted on
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:06 pm
akimball offline
User avatar
Posts: 434
Joined: Aug 07, 2013
Location: Sandy, Utah

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

Yay! :) Glad it’s working for you and you have the peace of mind knowing a key part of your system isn’t exposed to house power bumps. Congratulations.

-Al

Posted on
Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:58 am
Fxguy offline
Posts: 114
Joined: Mar 24, 2011

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

akimball wrote:
Yay! :) Glad it’s working for you and you have the peace of mind knowing a key part of your system isn’t exposed to house power bumps. Congratulations.



Thanks! Now to make sure my config / preferences are correct and weed out some of the plugins I don't need / don't use. Is there a way to remove the plugins that are stock / come with Indigo that I don't use?

Right now I'm using Alexa-Hue Bridge, Cynical Security Spy (although I need to update / purchase Security Spy server itself), and fingscan in particular.

Posted on
Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:12 pm
johnpolasek offline
Posts: 806
Joined: Aug 05, 2011
Location: Aggieland, Texas

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

akimball wrote:
Compatibility with x10 seems okay...that existed when insteon was invented, and in the history of insteon I doubt security was a concern in the beginning.

But I still don’t consider it a problem if the product does what I need it to do. My big exception is that the powerlinc and any insteon hub products are key focal points.

As an indigo customer, we have access to multiple protocols, hue, x10, zwave, insteon, others. The beauty of this approach is being able to transition over time to a more reliable protocol as they are added. Anything that needs security can use the best secure protocol supported by Indigo. I really don’t know how many insteon devices i have anymore....more than 100. Probably 150 or so. 20KPL’s alone...I did count those recently. But as long as I have a reliable mac and reliable modem...it just works for me.


I agree... the KPLs and ability to relay power line signals through a power pole switch to a metal outbuilding 200 yards away are reasons to keep Insteon around rather than replace everything with Z-wave as modules go belly up; but for me, the old palmpads are a reason that I have to keep that oldnastyunreliable X10 interface alive as well... when (if ever) will somebody package a Z-wave 16 button portable into a palmpad case or an 8 button pad with load control on button 1 in a single gang switch or a Z-wave over powerline or WIFI relay module?

Posted on
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:50 pm
akimball offline
User avatar
Posts: 434
Joined: Aug 07, 2013
Location: Sandy, Utah

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

I agree about the KPL’s although I actively search the web every 6 or 8 months in search of a good replacement for them. Specifically it’s far too painful to attempt to keep everything in sync. Inserted delays of 1 to 4 seconds can help...but I know the limitation; my family does not. They punch KPL buttons like they’re playing a rock solo on some midi keyboard...expecting the system to respond and it just doesn’t work that way.

I don’t have any x10 yet but I look in that realm too for a new keypad.

I should probably put in a feature request, but I also wish we could specify trigger actions down to 1/10th of a second increments. Sometimes I ask a KPL to trigger staggered actions to make it more reliable and I would love to insert delays between actions of 3/10ths of a second rather than 1 second intervals.

-Al

Posted on
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:20 am
pantalones offline
Posts: 79
Joined: Mar 29, 2012

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

While the 2413U is garbage, recapping it solves the problems.

I think this is the link I used

https://1projectaweek.com/blog/2017/6/2 ... -plm-2413u

I went through two of them, recapped mine, and now it works flawlessly.

Posted on
Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:20 pm
boisy offline
User avatar
Posts: 55
Joined: Jun 25, 2013

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

pantalones wrote:
While the 2413U is garbage, recapping it solves the problems.

I think this is the link I used

https://1projectaweek.com/blog/2017/6/2 ... -plm-2413u

I went through two of them, recapped mine, and now it works flawlessly.


I found this same exact site when my EZFlora failed. I followed the instructions and purchased the 5 capacitors, and replaced them. Now the 2413X's LED is finally lighting up again, but I'm getting the following error when I try to define and sync to the repaired EZFlora from Indigo:

Screen Shot 2018-04-01 at 7.18.30 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-04-01 at 7.18.30 PM.png (65.15 KiB) Viewed 255 times


So while the cap replacement did resurrect the main 2413X, Indigo is still failing to find the device. Can anyone shed some light on what the red error message indicates?

Boisy G. Pitre
Lead Developer, Tee-Boy
http://www.tee-boy.com

Posted on
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:53 pm
jay (support) offline
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 14156
Joined: Mar 19, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: PowerLinc 2413U Alternative

It's no longer identifying itself correctly. This is a relatively common occurrence with failing Smartenit devices. If a factory reset on it doesn't work then it means that it's firmware has gotten corrupted and it'll need to be replaced.

Jay (Indigo Support)
Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest