Keeping up with Mac OS releases

Posted on
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:41 pm
Dewster35 offline
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Keeping up with Mac OS releases

First and foremost, I'm a huge fan of Indigo. I'm also hugely thankful that Matt and Jay have dedicated their work for this project. Having lived without home automation for a couple of months during a move and when away on vacations, I've come to realize just how enabling Indigo has made my laziness! I really cannot see living without home automation in general and indigo specifically.

I dabble with very basic stuff but I am no developer, but something has been nagging at me for several years.

Each year we get a dire warning about not updating to a beta version of the software. I understand the ideas here... Apple pushes the envelope or rewrites something that wasn't broken to begin with and breaks a bunch of shit. Much of this gets fixed during the beta development process and gets fixed.

However, during the last few years the warnings have extended beyond that. For example, we are up to Mac OS .5 release and still told to hang tight if we want a stable system. I can appreciate that approach. If we keep the same OS we are going to be in a stable predicable environment. At one time, that was fine because Indigo really was the only mission critical software I was running. However as time has progressed, I now run Plex, Photos where I download all my originals, and other things that are also mission critical. I'm sure these mission critical things vary from user to user but I can't imagine I'm the only one in this boat.

While I would gladly buy another mac mini server to dedicate as an indigo machine, this isn't a decision that I'm willing to make financially.

I can understand staying away from betas, but the OS is mature. While there ARE still bugs, bad ones, that have not been addressed, many other developers have work arounds built into their applications to overcome these (not the identical ones that cause issues with indigo, but speaking very generally) errors. Please help me understand why Indigo hasn't done the same. Again, I mean no disrespect to the guys here, but is it just because it is so hardware related that to try to build in a work around isn't possible?

Posted on
Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:04 am
durosity offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

I’ve been thinking about this and one thing that really makes a difference between indigo and other apps you use on the Mac is that typically you’re away from your Mac when using indigo, but at your machine for most other applications. So while in front of your Mac if an app crashes because of some macOS bug you can just restart it.. and generally we don’t really think about it.. we just force quit and start again and move on. On the other hand If Indigo runs into an issue you may well not be anywhere near the machine.. so Matt and Jay have to be VERY careful in what they recommend. And one of Indigo’s key points is stability. It can only be as stable as the system it runs on.

On a side note my Mac Pro is running on the current release of High Sierra with a Z-Stick Gen 5 and a couple of other FTDI based devices (a 4 port RS-232 card and a rfxcom device) and I’ve not had any issues at all. In fact I’ve actually found it more stable than El Capitan. YMMV!


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Posted on
Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:26 am
Dewster35 offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

Good points noted.

Obviously the best solution is for apple to get their Shit together and not let such an egregious bug float along not addressed.

I don't have nearly enough time these days to look at the specifics of the issues and do a lot of fiddling around as I used to so I wasn't aware of the precise nature of the issues.

Matt and Jay - with the community we've got, is there something we can do to get apple to hear us and address this issue from a native OS standpoint?

Posted on
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:40 am
durosity offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

It would be nice for them to support virtualisation.. I completely understand why they don’t.. but it certainly could be a good way to work around a lot of issues.


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Posted on
Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:03 am
brianlloyd offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

Some of us have been around Apple for a long time. I go back to the Apple ][ days. I turned down a job offer to go work for Apple on something new which turned out to be the Lisa. Lisa was the precursor to the Macintosh. (Yeah, we are talking about the early 1980's here.) I would have been working on the creation of Appletalk. So I have seen Apple at work over several decades.

The sad thing is that I am seeing what appears to me to be the same path that led to Apple's near demise before Steve Jobs came back and created MacOS X. MacOS 6 and 7 were eminently usable, albeit not a real multitasking OS with memory management. Apple kept adding "features" and "improvements" until MacOS 9 was effectively unusable. Apple almost went out of business. Fortunately Steve Jobs was still around and was willing to return. I believe that his rigid, draconian management style and unwillingness to accept anything that wasn't near perfect is what made Apple what it is today. Now Steve is gone and I am watching the return to mediocrity that nearly killed Apple before. Unfortunately there is no Steve Jobs waiting in the wings to come back and fix the problem again. I fear for the future of MacOS and things that depend on it.

I have watched many aspects of MacOS become unusable. MacOS server has stopped being a useful network filesystem. I can no longer keep my home directory on the server as nearly all of the Apple apps fail with network-attached storage. Apple can't tell me why. I am tired of conflicting information from Apple on my complaints and their willingness to close issues that never get fixed.

But I am wholly dependent on Indigo now. All my lights, HVAC, blinds, and AV are controlled by Indigo. My AV system is so complex that I am the only person who can run it without using Indigo as a front-end. Roon handles my audio and Indigo all the switching to get everything to play nicely. I am afraid of what Apple is going to do in the future to f--k up MacOS and render Indigo unusable.

So here comes the $64,000 question: what about the idea of making Indigo run on Linux or other Unix operating systems? Hardware that runs Linux is cheap. I suspect even a Raspberry Pi could run Indigo. I have made the decision to start migrating off of MacOS towards a more stable and secure platform. (I won't mention Windows, not even as a joke.) Right now I have a Mini running MacOS Server, Indigo, and Roon Server. It is the core of my home. Storage is SSD and RAID-5 for integrity. If need be I can keep MacOS around to run Indigo but that would necessitate one more processing box. I'll do it if I have to but I would like to remain consolidated on one central server.

Thoughts?

Posted on
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:08 pm
brianlloyd offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

lanbrown wrote:
brianlloyd wrote:
So here comes the $64,000 question: what about the idea of making Indigo run on Linux or other Unix operating systems? Hardware that runs Linux is cheap. I suspect even a Raspberry Pi could run Indigo. I have made the decision to start migrating off of MacOS towards a more stable and secure platform. (I won't mention Windows, not even as a joke.) Right now I have a Mini running MacOS Server, Indigo, and Roon Server. It is the core of my home. Storage is SSD and RAID-5 for integrity. If need be I can keep MacOS around to run Indigo but that would necessitate one more processing box. I'll do it if I have to but I would like to remain consolidated on one central server.

Thoughts?


Something like that was implied. AppleScript would be out the window but with it being for all intents and purposes being deprecated, Linux would be a great alternative. The bigger issue though, many people have issues migrating a system from one macOS release to the next. I could only imagine them with Linux.


Does anyone use AppleScript with Indigo? (That is a serious, not rhetorical, question.) Who would be effected if AppleScript wasn't present?

Migration is always an issue. Linux is pretty easy to install and get running. Roon is at least as complex as Indigo for getting installed and working, perhaps more so, and it is pretty easy to do on Linux. But it would open the option to having inexpensive prepackaged hardware for people who don't want to deal with hardware. An RPi with Indigo already on a MicroSD card would make a pretty nice home control system. Indigo isn't doing audio or video so there aren't huge processing loads.

Just thinking aloud here. MacOS is headed downhill. I'm thinking of maintenance and migration paths to keep Indigo alive in my house.

Posted on
Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:30 pm
brianlloyd offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

lanbrown wrote:
It was either Matt or Jay that said a Raspberry Pi would have more than enough memory to run Indigo and and quite a few plugins. I would prefer a straight Linux install as I have a server to run it on.


I understand that too. OTOH I like the idea of computers that only need a handful of watts of power.

Yes, people still use AppleScript.


Huh. I never would have imagined that.

No matter how easy you think it is to install, there are many that have issues with macOS and it is far friendlier than Linux.


Not really these days. I have a LOT of "appliance" Raspberry Pi's where I download the system image with all the software already installed onto the MicroSD card and then just turn on the power. Up the whole application comes. It is dead-nuts simple.

Posted on
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:27 am
kw123 offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

Rpis work als long as you don’t power down without shutting down.
Writing to the ssd is limited.

Rpi would work if you add a decent hard disk that is used for data storage and the ssd is only used for booting.

But with all the plugin I don’t believe the rpis could handle that. A simple indigo yes



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Posted on
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:51 am
Different Computers offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

brianlloyd wrote:
Linux is pretty easy to install and get running.


I don't mean to start a fight here, but this is just straight up tech blindness, because installing Linux is something you know how to do. It's not something you know how to do because it's easy. It's something that's easy because you know how to do it.

I'm a 20+ year Mac support guy who makes a good living at it, and I've poked at installing Linux 3-4 times in the past decade, usually to get older hardware doing something useful. Every single time I've tried has been filled with frustration and failure.

The Linux community in particular is filled with breezy documentation that mentions undocumented processes that you then have to look up only to find out that said docs reference a command line tool that it doesn't explain so you have to look that up and that uses flags that aren't explained clearly and for some reason don't work as you expect so you have to look those up in more detail to find out that they have unexpected effects on your particular hardware so you need to install something via Ports and what is ports and does it run on Debian with the default options that are the only ones that have been described... and on and on. And at the end of the process (which involved having to slog through docs that read more like a screed on why everyone should use vi) you end up with an unpolished, 1990's looking UI that STILL won't even play an MP3 file.

One of the reasons I settled on Indigo is that those 20+ years of Mac experience give me depth of experience that allows me to skip all the above, and just do it. And even so, I do find myself trying to figure out why PIL might be throwing errors in a particular case, and heading down a rabbit hole. But with Indigo on a Mac, I know most of the warren.

SmartThings refugee, so happy to be on Indigo. Monterey on a base M1 Mini w/Harmony Hub, Hue, DomoPad, Dynamic URL, Device Extensions, HomeKitLink, Grafana, Plex, uniFAP, Fantastic Weather, Nanoleaf, LED Simple Effects, Bond Home, Camect.

Posted on
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:19 am
brianlloyd offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

I appreciate what you are saying but have you tried any of the applications with the software pre-loaded on a disk image? Literally you download the image, copy it onto your MicroSD card, and put it into the RPi. When you apply power to the RPi the application is up and running, fully installed. You don't have to install Linux nor do you have to install any packages. They are already installed in the image.

The point is, this is even easier than getting Indigo running on MacOS. I am *NOT* a Linux guy. I have been using MacOS too long. But I see the coming end-point.

Macintosh is becoming an orphan child at Apple. Apple is all about iOS devices now. They could drop Mac and MacOS and it would hardly make a dent in their bottom line. It is clear from the behavior of tech support and MacOS itself that they are no longer putting their best resources on MacOS development. With each subsequent release we get more useless features which one has to search to disable, and less stability. I am AFRAID to upgrade my machines now. So the question is, for mission-critical applications that run on MacOS, and I consider Indigo to be one such, where are we going to go when MacOS is gone or becomes so unstable as to be unusable?

Posted on
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:33 am
FlyingDiver offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

brianlloyd wrote:
Macintosh is becoming an orphan child at Apple. Apple is all about iOS devices now. They could drop Mac and MacOS and it would hardly make a dent in their bottom line. It is clear from the behavior of tech support and MacOS itself that they are no longer putting their best resources on MacOS development. With each subsequent release we get more useless features which one has to search to disable, and less stability. I am AFRAID to upgrade my machines now. So the question is, for mission-critical applications that run on MacOS, and I consider Indigo to be one such, where are we going to go when MacOS is gone or becomes so unstable as to be unusable?


I'll worry about MacOS going away when Apple announces an alternate platform for iOS (and tvOS and watchOS) development.

Seriously, while it's only about 10% of Apple's revenue (and trending down), it's an important foundation for their larger business. We complain about the lack of choices in hardware to run Indigo on, but that's not really an indicator of the health of the platform. Just a reminder that those are not the devices that the target audience buys. I'm hoping that the next-gen Mac Pro is flexible enough to support both low end (Indigo) and high end (Video, AR, VR development) users.

joe (aka FlyingDiver)
my plugins: http://forums.indigodomo.com/viewforum.php?f=177

Posted on
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:51 am
autolog offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

I'm going to join the debate. :D

For me the latest release of Mac OS has been very stable. I am running Indigo on a 2017 iMac running High Sierra. I have a lot of plugins running - there is no way this would run on a Raspberry Pi IMHO. I also can't see Apple ditching Mac OS. :wink:

Given that Matt & Jay are fully tied up with supporting and developing Indigo on the Mac OS platform, it seems to me that a Linux implementation is somewhat unlikely.

I agree with @Different Computers, I don't think Linux is simple for the average (non-IT) user. Whilst it could be packaged up as an image on a SSD it would still need some tinkering, I suspect, when updates come along.

I would much much rather see any effort on Indigo spent on extending the existing system and making a dent in the ever growing future feature list, as opposed to going off-piste to get Indigo working on Linux. :)

Posted on
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:20 am
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

I've worked extensively with Windows, macOS (since Apple II), Linux of many flavors (and still use Linux extensively for many things) and both rPi and Arduino and can say without a doubt that Linux is not, in my opinion, easier. If you don't believe me then try to do most everything on your Mac via the terminal since macOS is, essentially, a commercial and beefier Linux. It's the UI that differentiates most operating systems in an end users eye and X Windows isn't a very friendly interface. I used X on Linux for years for a very specific purpose and while it was really novel and fun at first it wore off fast and I hated working on that X system.

I find macOS to be, hands down, the best operating system on the market today. Of course it has warts, you cannot be a mainstream operating system and be perfect, there are too many people with too many opinions to make everyone happy.

I think if you want Indigo on rPi or Linux or Windows or whatever then dig in and build a better mousetrap. There are already a dozen Linux based home automation systems out there, I would use that. Most are open source too so you can really flavor it the way you like.

If I wanted an appliance I would use Vera, but I want intelligence and I use Indigo. And when you are talking taking a disc image and flashing rPi then it's no different than being an appliance, except it is an appliance that you loaded instead of one that came factory loaded.

That's my opinion on the topic.

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HomeKit Bridge | Device Extensions | Security Manager | LCD Creator | Room-O-Matic | Smart Dimmer | Scene Toggle | Powermiser | Homebridge Buddy

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Posted on
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:17 am
Sharek326 offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

Maybe I am missing the mark here and I do understand for some having a dedicated Mac for indigo just isn't possible financially. But for me I look at this as a hobby more than anything. An expensive hobby. At $65 per Motion and $40 per switch the costs could rack up fast depending on how crazy we all want to go. And some of us can get pretty crazy.

In my opinion when starting to put your foot in the pool of home automation start out slow try to get the most bang for your buck. Do a room at a time and invest in what matters. By a used dedicated Mini off Ebay for a few bucks and pick and choose what makes the most impact. Thats how I did it. The computer to me is without a doubt the most important part of the hobby we do. If I were a car guy I wouldn't go the Chevy and ask if the Corvette comes in a 4 cylinder version because of cost. Key parts really do matter to this as well.

That being said if you do have a dedicated Mac for this purpose I never really got the need for people to worry about the latest OS Version until it would matter with Indigo. It should be used in a server function. At one point in my life I owned a dial up Internet Provider (talk about dating myself) I would have enjoyed walking in my server room on a daily bases and upgraded the racks and racks of 3Comm Modems, DNS Servers and Mail Servers. But thats just not practical. They provide a service and are designed for a specific job. I set them up and forgot about them, provided a security fix or patch wasn't needed. I guess I just don't understand if Indigo runs fine on an older OS and doesn't require the newer why are we looking to make life harder. It in place to provide a specific purpose or need. If its doing that then leave it be. To me its about Security and Stability.

Posted on
Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:53 am
howartp offline
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Re: Keeping up with Mac OS releases

I’ve been a Windows IT Network Manager for 15 years, and equally happy in command prompt as UI.

We have 2 Mac Minis plus my Indigo Mini at home. Never touch 2 of them (iOS Caching server and Music GarageBand publishing).

I’ve installed Linux once, using a pre-packaged release CD, plus a few flavours of VMware ESX

Yes I installed it, yes I could navigate ls, cd, and rd but mention Vi or Emacs and I’ll run a mile! (If I need to SSH onto a Linux appliance to tweak a config, I’ll use puttyFTP to pull the file to windows, edit it, and put it back again!)

Get me to build/make a pkg or suchlike and I’ll look blankly at you. Even compiling HBB on Mac was enough!

No way is Linux suitable for the Indigo masses. Suitable as an additional option for those familiar, sure, why not? But not as “Linux is far easier than MacOS”.


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