My Indigo + Insteon experience (long)

Posted on
Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:06 pm
Alexander offline
Posts: 60
Joined: Sep 06, 2005

My Indigo + Insteon experience (long)

I'm a first-time Indigo user who has been waiting for the Insteon beta to get started. I have 25 Insteon devices installed: 20 SwitchLinc Dimmers, 1 SwitchLinc Relay, 1 KeypadLinc, 2 ControLincs, and the PowerLinc. I have never bothered to plug in the SignaLinc repeaters, because I have never had a problem with Insteon signal reliability.

Interface Setup

I bought a PowerLinc and a W800RF32 from Norm at funforgeeks.com, and added my own old Keyspan serial adapter for the W800. Connect them up, install the drivers, Indigo sees everything no problem. This is why I love Macs. :D

Device Setup

I managed to do this without copying any Insteon addresses from the devices. I linked the PowerLinc to a SwitchLinc, which made the Insteon address show up in Indigo's event log, then made a new device with that address. (Bug: I had to unplug the PowerLinc after getting the address but before adding the device, otherwise the PowerLinc would be in a weird state and not get a ping response.) During setup, Indigo also reveals (in the event log) the addresses of all devices that are linked to the device you're setting up. Because of this, and the fact that many of my devices are already interlinked, I only had to manually link about 4 devices in order to set up all 24. To streamline the somewhat clumsy and slow initlal setup process, it would be nice if Indigo captured the Insteon addresses as it became aware of them and offered to set them up for you in batches.

I can see right away that keeping Indigo in sync with the Insteon links is going to be an issue. A single "update all links" command would be really helpful here, I think. (Even if it does take 30 minutes!)

It would certainly be nice to have more Insteon maintenance functionality in Indigo, such as the ability to set up and manage native Insteon links. However, this does seem like it would be a substantial amount of work, and end up bringing Indigo into something of a Smarthome Device Manager clone for the Mac. I don't know if that's where Perceptive wants to take this or not (sales through Smarthome?), and it's really their decision. I do have a Windows PC that I wouldn't mind using for maintenance tasks like these, once Smarthome Manager is available. (oo, I see the alpha is on the developer site, I should have looked for that before.)

Action Setup

It took some time to understand Indigo's control paradigm, and it still feels a little clumsy--I have to set up an action group in a different pane if I want a trigger to do more than one thing? Even if that action group is only ever used by that trigger? But what's really important is that I was able to set up everything I wanted to, including interesting things like zoned motion detectors, where any motion detector in the zone can reset the countdown for the entire zone.

I am a little concerned that each trigger can only have one condition attached to it; I know that there are some tricks you can do with programmatically enabling and disabling actions, but this feels really kludgey. For a future version, something like the Finder's search interface, where you can add and subtract multiple conditions (and actions!) would make me feel a lot more comfortable. Also, more powerful control over variables (set to an expression?) would be nice.

I love the event log, but because of all the motion detectors and actions, it gets kind of busy. A "high-level" event log that only contains configurable entries would be appreciated. For example, I'd like to see a log of only Insteon commands and selected actions.

Remote Access

The Indigo dashboard widget is sexy, but it is unusably slow if you're connecting to a copy of Indigo on a different machine and doing anything more complex than setting a single light or executing a single action. Several seconds to actually perform a command, then several more seconds to update the status. I didn't even show the widget to my WAF because it was embarrassingly slow.

I hadn't originally planned to install them, but the PHP Web control scripts are much better. The page reload after every command also really cuts down on usage speed, but being comfortable with PHP and HTML, this will be easy enough to hack a workaround for. Some Javascript that does an asynchronous status reload and lets you fire off lots of commands without the entire page reloading would be really nice for the future.

As far as widget speed, I suspect that making the widget interface to a PHP script would work better than the remote Apple Events.

Surprises

I was disappointed that sending multiple Insteon commands in an action group isn't as fast as controlling a group from a regular controller. I understand now that this is a little complex with Insteon, because you have to set up extra Insteon links between the PowerLinc and the devices in the group, but I think this is something Indigo should do. Even without that, though, it seems the commands are much slower than the 50ms Insteon claims to be capable of, more on the order of 800ms per command. I understand it may not be possible to actually fire 20 commands per second with the latest PowerLinc, but I still think we can do better than one command per second. (There are some tips on the Insteon developer board about this, though I haven't looked at them.)

I was pleasantly surprised that Indigo is able to see Insteon commands sent from other devices, and more importantly, that triggers can be made from these external commands. I was even more pleasantly surprised that I could assign triggers specifically to double-taps; this addresses one of the few advantages I saw in UPB over Insteon--the ability to assign more complex actions to standard switches.

In the same vein, I wasn't expecting the PowerLinc to see X10 commands on the powerline, pass them to Indigo, and then have Indigo let me trigger actions on those commands. This easily addresses one of the things I was uncertain how to approach: Getting simple IR commands from a universal remote into Indigo, for things like "media system in use" and basic lighting control. I just plugged in a basic X10 IR receiver, and set up triggers on it in Indigo. Awesome!

Summary

Thank you, Matt, for getting this beta out. It works well, and I'm glad to be able to connect all this stuff together. Barring any unforseen explosions, I'll definitely be buying my copy of Indigo when the demo expires, and I also look forward to buying future versions with improved polish and remote access capability.

Posted on
Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:24 pm
dtich offline
Posts: 798
Joined: Sep 24, 2005

(No subject)

some good notes there, many of which i believe are under consideration... some may be limitations of insteon's current state of programmability, but i'm sure matt will elaborate....

fwiw.

Posted on
Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:11 pm
ajturner offline
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Joined: Jul 10, 2005
Location: Washington, DC

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I can answer to the PHP web interface and the Widget.

You should grab the newer PHP interface, which offers the asynchronous communications you mentioned. Follow the link in my sig - hopefully Matt can replace the current listing in the Perceptive Automation listing to the ones hosted on my site.

I think you're correct that the async interface is much slicker.

As for the Widget - there are definite difficulties with the remote Applescript. It's really limited by the execution & response speed of the AS. An async GET to a PHP script may be an option (essentially act through the same interface as the PHP pages). However, there are some other options coming in the future that I think will remove the necessity of remote AS and have a much better response.

Andy
However, the widget and PHP pages are released under the BSD open-source license, so you're more than free to hack away at them. :)

Control Indigo from anywhere in the world:
http://highearthorbit.com/software/indigowidget

Posted on
Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:24 pm
matt (support) offline
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Re: My Indigo + Insteon experience (long)

Hi Alexander,

Thanks for taking the time to write up your experience, especially as a first-time Indigo user.

The single update all links command is definitely in the works. First, I want to make sure that single device linking is reliable enough. Once I feel that we can sync all of the devices in a row without errors causing the process to stop, I'll add the global sync. I think we are closer with some changes I added to beta 6, but I'm not positive I'll add this functionality into 1.8.0. We'll see...

Link management is definitely a goal. It won't be in 1.8.0, but likely will be in a future version (maybe 2.0). I want to make sure it is very usable and solid first.

I definitely agree Indigo needs multiple conditionals, and a way to have multiple actions assigned to a Trigger or Time/Date Action without having to create an Action Group. And remote access needs to be built into the app.

Indigo does push the commands out just about as quickly as the PowerLinc V2 can handle them currently. I'm sure this could be tuned to be a bit faster, but it won't be near 50ms for quite a while. I believe the 50ms is for a single outgoing group command that is not ACKd and not cleaned up, and one that originates from the PowerLinc's internal app engine not through USB/serial comm. All the commands Indigo sends are ACKd (2-way), and might have to hop to get from 1 power leg to the other. If the command isn't ACKd successfully, then the hop count increases and it is re-sent. This can slow things down, but greatly improves the reliability. I'm seeing about 630 ms for a completed ACKd command. The device actually turns on much faster than this (maybe around 150 ms), but the round trip ACK takes a while to get reported back to Indigo before it can send the next command.

The right way to probably approach speeding things up is to support groups/scenes so that multiple lights respond to a single command together instead of the current serial fashion.

Thanks again for the comments and a first-time user review. Definitely useful.

Regards,
Matt

Posted on
Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:43 pm
gmusser offline
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Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Location: New Jersey

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Regarding global sync, my experience with beta 8 is that the single-device sync can still be fragile. I sometimes get USB errors (which used to plague me a lot, but now occur only when doing a sync, and even then, only when sync'ing KeypadLincs). It would be nice if Indigo put the sync on hold pending re-establishment of the USB connection, rather than force the user to restart from scratch.
George

Posted on
Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:51 pm
matt (support) offline
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Hi George,

You are getting USB errors that totally drop the PowerLinc connection? I never get these unless I pull the USB cable out of the computer or PowerLinc. We've probably been over all this before, but is the PowerLinc V2 plugged directly into your Mac? Have you tried other USB ports? Are there any non-standard USB devices you are using?

Lastly, is anyone else getting these USB level errors? Not INSTEON or X10 communication failures, but rather true USB pipe errors that cause the PowerLinc to be totally dropped.

Regards,
Matt

Posted on
Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:05 pm
gmusser offline
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Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Location: New Jersey

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This is what I get in the log:

Error usb data write: timeout
Error usb data write: clearing pipes
Error usb data write: failed2 (0xE00002EB)
Error usb data write: clearing pipes
Error usb data write: pipe clear failed (0xE0004061)
Error usb data read: not open

In 1.6, such errors typically caused Indigo to hang, resisting even a force quit, but 1.8b8 usually self-corrects within a minute or so. My PowerLinc, you may recall, is connected to a Keyspan USB server on my LAN, so I presume the USB errors reflect Wi-Fi problems. Nonetheless, even in more conventional set-ups, I could see a situation where a user bumps a USB cable or heavy processor load causes a driver burp. During a global sync with intense communications over half an hour or so, the risk goes up.

George

Posted on
Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:08 pm
matt (support) offline
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Got it. I really wish the Keyspan USB server was a bit more tolerant of temporary IP congestion/problems.

Matt

Posted on
Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:50 am
yergeyj offline
Posts: 260
Joined: Dec 29, 2004

PowerLinc V2 - Linking problems

I seem to have similar problems with the PowerLincV2.

I just received the PowerLinc V2 (tested by funforgeeks).
I had already installed Indigo v1.8beta8, using the 1132CU and X10 devices.
I quit Indigo, removed the 1132CU , plugged in the 2414U, restarted Indigo, and all seemed to work fine; I did not "download the internal application and reset" on the 2414U.
I added one LampLincV2 successfully (after figuring out what and where it's address was); it worked from Indigo and my exisiting ControlLinc.
When I tried to add a second LampLincV2, errors started appearing:

2005-12-27 08:48:30 PowerLinc Linking - syncing 00.61.18 complete - This was the finish of the first succcessful link.
2005-12-27 08:53:59 PowerLinc Linking - adding device address 00.61.07 into PowerLinc's database
2005-12-27 08:54:08 Error resending previous command (failure response)
2005-12-27 08:54:17 Error resending previous command (failure response)
2005-12-27 08:54:26 Error resending previous command (failure response)
2005-12-27 08:54:35 Error resending previous command (failure response)
2005-12-27 08:54:44 Error resending previous command (failure response)
2005-12-27 08:54:53 Error resending previous command (failure response)
2005-12-27 08:55:04 Error resending previous command (failure response)
2005-12-27 08:55:05 PowerLinc Linking - failed to update PowerLinc's database
2005-12-27 08:55:05 Error linking failed

I then tried to "download the internal application and reset" and have been unsuccessful in communicating with the 2414 since?

Thoughts?
Jim

P.S. I could send my entire log file to you if that would help, Matt.

Posted on
Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:37 am
matt (support) offline
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Re: PowerLinc V2 - Linking problems

Hi Jim,

The errors you are seeing in the Event Log I would expect to see if you didn't have your SignaLinc RFs paired correctly or if they were not plugged into outlets on opposite power legs. If you have correctly paired the SignaLinc RFs, then you might want to try them in different outlets.

Did you get an error when you did downloaded the internal app and reset? What type of errors are you seeing now when you try to command the LampLinc that was working? And can you control any of your X10 devices? Feel free to email me (indigo-support) your Event Log file and I'll look it over.

Regards,
Matt

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