How reliable/hasslefree is Indigo and Insteon?

Posted on
Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:04 pm
hamw offline
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Joined: Mar 31, 2008

How reliable/hasslefree is Indigo and Insteon?

I've been lurking around here trying to get a sense of whether to go with an Insteon install. It seems like there are not too many complaints with the setup. However, if you all could give some opinions it'd be great.

Most importantly, what about the fact that you have to have your Mac on all the time? I've been a devoted Apple fan for >20 years, and although they are way better than PCs IMHO, they frequently need to be rebooted for one reason or another.

Doesn't this affect the performance of the Indigo software?

Overall how much downtime do you experience, or how often do you experience downtime, in your system? Does it frequently need a tweak to keep it going? I know the PowerLinc stores much of the system logic, but is the system dead on reliable, with or without the mac?

What is the real-world status of any kind of iPod integration? I would like two way communication, although it is not mandatory.

I've read about the IR linc and EZUIRT. How much of a hassle are these to program and control? Without an iPod, I'll be using Crestron touchpanels to send IR to Indigo. Any problems with signal reception, transmission, etc?

Overall it looks like a great system, and Matt seems to do a bang-up job with support. Just would like some real world input.

Posted on
Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:00 pm
jay (support) offline
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Re: How reliable/hasslefree is Indigo and Insteon?

hamw wrote:
Most importantly, what about the fact that you have to have your Mac on all the time? I've been a devoted Apple fan for >20 years, and although they are way better than PCs IMHO, they frequently need to be rebooted for one reason or another.


Two things here:

1) Indigo doesn't have to be running and thus your Mac doesn't either. A lot of users run with this exact this scenario. Some advanced functionality (integration with other apps, very complex scenes, etc) may not work, but basic lighting and timers work just fine when downloaded to the PowerLinc 2414.

2) I have been using Macs practically every day since 1988. In the Pre-OS X days and perhaps even in 10.0 and 10.1, I would agree (to a certain extent) with your assessment about reboots. However, since that time I find I rarely ever need to reboot. The PowerMac G5 server I have running in my house now hasn't been rebooted since the last security update. In fact, that's the ONLY time I ever reboot it; I go months between reboots with no problems.

hamw wrote:
Doesn't this affect the performance of the Indigo software?


In what way? I think I'm missing your point...

hamw wrote:
Overall how much downtime do you experience, or how often do you experience downtime, in your system? Does it frequently need a tweak to keep it going? I know the PowerLinc stores much of the system logic, but is the system dead on reliable, with or without the mac?


No powerline signal-based technology is dead on reliable: electrical devices vary too greatly in the amount of signal interference they generate on the powerline. So, something as innocuous as getting a new cell phone may cause some interferrence because it's transformer is noisy.

Insteon is leaps ahead of X10 in this regard, but nothing other than a hard-wired system (and really not even then) is gonna be 100% reliable. For instance, in my house, I maybe miss 2-3 signals a month (where a light doesn't go on or off via a remote command when it's supposed to), and I have 20+ Insteon devices.

hamw wrote:
What is the real-world status of any kind of iPod integration? I would like two way communication, although it is not mandatory.


iPod integration? If you mean iPod Touch/iPhone native client, it's very high on our priority list. Several users have made some nice control pages that work pretty well on the iPhone as well.

hamw wrote:
I've read about the IR linc and EZUIRT. How much of a hassle are these to program and control? Without an iPod, I'll be using Crestron touchpanels to send IR to Indigo. Any problems with signal reception, transmission, etc?


Others with more experience can chime in here, but I find the IRLinc to work pretty well. Programming it was not super-intuitive, but it works for my needs. I haven't actually used an EZUIRT so I can't comment.

hamw wrote:
Overall it looks like a great system, and Matt seems to do a bang-up job with support. Just would some real world input.


I was a longtime Indigo user before joining Matt to work on Indigo. Still, maybe I'm a little less objective... :wink:

jay

Posted on
Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:05 pm
Matt offline
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Location: Northern Idaho

(No subject)

I moved over to Insteon from X10 a few years ago and am completely happy with the system. Of the thirty or so devices I have installed, only one of them has been a problem and that is because of a manufacturer's defect.

I run Indigo on a Mac Mini 24/7. I restart the computer every night at midnight - I only started doing this in the last 3 weeks. Not because I have to or because it improves performance, but because I think it's a good idea to keep any problems from developing.

I bought my first Mac Mini for the sole purpose of running Indigo. It functioned perfectly for over three years before the hard drive gave out - a week after the extended warranty expired no less. It was a G4 1.25GHz computer that also ran BOINC, Phlink, Indigo, and SecuritySpy at all times and I never had a problem

I don't upload any of my actions to the PowerLinc except to turn the outside lights on and off at sunset and sunrise. So I can't speak to the reliability once the Mac is off.

I use my iPhone and Indigo to control my house lighting, garage door, sprinklers, etc.

I have an irTrans unit with iRed running on all my computers. IR management is simple with this combination. iRed has also developped an iPhone app to controll irTrans units - it's recieved outstanding reviews from its users; it is compatible with the iPod Touch as well.

I can't say enough about the support that comes with Indigo - just look over the forums and you'll see how often Matt responds to troubleshooting issues and other posts. Updates and bug fixes are always in the works and never far between. New devices are constantly being added to Indigo's library. I don't think you'll find better tech support anywhere else as far as software goes. I don't think there is a better piece of software out there for the Mac in terms of value, functionality, and support.

Posted on
Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:34 pm
dscottbuch offline
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Joined: Jan 19, 2004

(No subject)

Just some quick input. Unlike others here I've never used the upload capability and leave the iMac server running 24/7. The reason for this is I'm doing a lot of other things with this iMac

- Media server to Apple TV and music
- Calendar server
- Mail server
- database server
- Simplify server
- Indigo
- Bookshelf server
- Apache WEB/php server
- Indigo web server

So turning it off is not an option.

On average I would say I re-boot less than once per week and often that is for a software upgrade. On re-boot I never have to tweak anything except the Calendar server on some occasions (haven't figured that one out yet).

I used to be all X10 and that could often be a pain. Replacing the flaky X-10's with Insteon has been a god send. My approximate Indigo configuration is

- iMac 20" running 10.5.5
- Indigo 3.03
- Powerlink 2414U V2
- Lights ~ 11 controls with about 1/2 X10
- sprinklers ~ 24 stations - 16 X10 ezrain, 8 Insteon ezrain
- Rain detection
- W800RF32 receiver to provide
--- two sensors on the Garage doors
--- interface to x10 PalmPad for Sprinkler control
--- interface to lighting controls

I set the sprinkler schedule through a MySQL database and a php script interface to the Indigo schedule. The rest is straight scheduling using Indigo.

As was said above - support from Perceptive is fantastic.

Hope this helps.

Posted on
Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:52 pm
hamw offline
Posts: 1212
Joined: Mar 31, 2008

(No subject)

Thanks for the replies. Nice to know it is relatively stable.

As an added question, how much programming is necessary to do the stuff you all do? I suppose I could do the applescript--looks pretty straightforward--but is that needed for programming flexibility?

Stated another way, what is it that indigo doesn't do that makes this programming necessary?

Posted on
Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:50 am
captcurrent offline
Posts: 440
Joined: Nov 28, 2005

programming

The question was raised about what doesn't indigo do that requires programming

Initially the only programming I need to do or know was customizing general scripts to my set up for security. This takes tweaking from time to time when you do battery changes in the insenton dedvices, but beyond that not much. The rest comes when you sense the flexibility of the Indigo and want more.. I have only touched the surface of capabiliies.

The strength of customer support.. first from the company.. they are amazing and patient.. Matt has put up with my frustration, stupidity and heaven knows what and still finds me a solution. The the user community..its almost like a team..

Posted on
Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:10 am
gstuartw offline
Posts: 47
Joined: Jan 24, 2009
Location: Bartonville, TX

Computer Dummies Annonymous

THE SCENE: Interior, Night, Dingy high school classroom.

A group of dejected adults sit, cradling laptops and desktops in their arms, eyes toward the front of a room where a lone individual turns to face the crowd. In a weary voice he speaks.

STUART: "Hi, my name is Stuart and I'm a computer dummy"

CROWD: (In unison) "Hi Stuart"

STUART: "I hope I'm not out of line bringing up a competitor's product but as it has been offered to me on the Smarthome forum Indigo is listed as the most powerful and flexible when it comes to Insteon device automation. Second rated was the ISY and then the Inseon SmartLinc.

I'm sitting on a couple of thousand dollars worth of Insteon and about to install. I'm looking for the easiest to deal with in terms of initial set up and ongoing additions of devices as well as changes to installed devices.

I've been a bit anxious about this. I'm not a techie, and when I see discussions on this forum, Smarthome and Universal Devices that feature discussions of code and programming I begin to wonder if I'm setting myself up for headaches. I don't want this to be one more computer related frustration.

Thanks for listening."

Crowd, empathizing with Stuart's confession stands and surrounds him in a group hug.

Posted on
Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:27 pm
jay (support) offline
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(No subject)

Well, since I work at Perceptive Automation, I may not be the most unbiased opinion, but here goes.

I think you'd be best served by identifying, with as much specificity as possible, what it is you want to do. You can then download our trial version, try it out, ask lots of questions here on the forumns, and decide.

I think that there is a learning curve to HA in general, because it's a mixture of hardware and software, and (unlike Apple), it comes from different vendors. We've tried to hide as much complexity as we can while not sacrificing power/capabilities. Much of what you'll see here on the forums is because people have gotten past the simple (turn this light on at this time and off at that time) stuff and are now wanting to do more.

Just MHO. Feel free to ask any more questions, and, by all means, try it out. It's free and if you already have the hardware you have nothing to lose. Even if you don't have the hardware, you can still try it out (define non-existant X10 devices then try out time/date actions, action groups, etc). Just remember, we all were at the start of this journey at one time or another, and I believe you'll find more support here than on any other vendor's site - our user community is without a doubt the best!

Jay (Indigo Support)
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Posted on
Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:07 pm
jguinn offline
Posts: 27
Joined: Dec 21, 2005

(No subject)

I don't work for Perceptive Automation at all, but have used Indigo since the beginning of time it seems.

Several years ago, I converted to Mac from PC and have never looked back. There's simply no question that if you want a platform that gets out of your way and gets the job done, Mac is the way to go. Therefore, when it came time to look at home automation packages, my choices were instantly narrowed down considerably.

I had used some X10 PC control software "back in the day" and (vaguely) remember being absolutely amazed by how powerful Indigo was - even back in the 1.X days.

When Matt took the product to the 2.X client-server model, Indigo really "grew up" from my perspective.

As Jay mentioned, HA in general comes with a learning curve. I've had my HA controller in the same place, on the same circuit, with the same other devices for YEARS. Suddenly my 2414 went deaf to X10. Norm quickly replaced that unit for me, and now I seem to be battling some other issues that I never experienced before. Seems like there is noise on the line... sometimes... and I've yet to isolate when/why. Anyway, I digress...

As far as Indigo's reliability goes, I simply have no complaints. My configuration is certainly not as sophisticated as some others'. But over the past few years, I've incorporated increasingly complex logic using more motion detectors and environment variables.

Jay is correct - you're simply not going to find a healthier user community anywhere. And the best thing is that the developers of Indigo actively participate in the community. The only thing more frustrating than having no forum for end-user contributions is having a forum that goes completely unnoticed by developers.

Matt does an excellent job of listening to users' suggestions and incorporating those where feasible, and simultaneously having a definite project roadmap for Indigo and sticking to it. In other words, development isn't haphazard or in response to each and every whim. When a new version of Indigo comes out, the new features are well thought and contribute something meaningful to the overall project. I tremendously respect the quality of work and commitment to the project that these guys show. I wish that more software developers would follow Perceptive Automation's lead. The software packages that we use on a daily basis would certainly be more dependable, more reliable, and work harder for us if they did.

Posted on
Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:08 pm
gstuartw offline
Posts: 47
Joined: Jan 24, 2009
Location: Bartonville, TX

(No subject)

Thanks Jay!

Right now I won't be doing anything other than turning lights on and off and operating/monitoring garage doors. As I get more comfortable and save enough cash for more hardware I'll move on to controlling the HVAC, swimming pool/spa and retrofitting my lawn irrigation with EZflora. As my daughter gets a couple of years older I'll consider remotely operated cameras etc to keep an eye on the boys!

So I can download 4.0 and make it do things as if I have devices actually wired in? Great!

Posted on
Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:30 pm
captcurrent offline
Posts: 440
Joined: Nov 28, 2005

fear not

Hey I was the one they didn't the computer for dummies class... i was in the keyboards for really dumb people



the core capabilities are a snap... great support both from matt and jay but the whole user community

when you start tweaking scripts. yeah some times you are not going to have a clue what you are doing.. and still pull it off.. again the user community here is very patient and you will find help abounds

have fun

Posted on
Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:36 pm
gstuartw offline
Posts: 47
Joined: Jan 24, 2009
Location: Bartonville, TX

(No subject)

jguinn and captcurrent, I appreciate you two chiming in.

I've decided to go with the Indigo. I'll download this weekend and order the Powerlinc also.

In the mean time I was planning on starting to install the SwitchLincs and OutletLincs. Which is better at this time, leaving the settings like dim and ramp rate until I have the Indigo in place or do perform those tasks now manually? What about KeypadLincs and assigning devices to them?

Posted on
Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:59 pm
jguinn offline
Posts: 27
Joined: Dec 21, 2005

(No subject)

Stuart,
You can certainly go ahead and link the devices using the device-to-device method if you like. Indigo will "learn" those links when you get the Powerlinc installed. I did exactly that back in the old days before Indigo supported device linking.

That being said, I'll most definitely never undertake that project again now that Indigo allows for link management! I found the hardware linking process to be tedious and frustrating. My dog was even blushing from hearing some of the phrases coming from my mouth the last time I tried that!

hehe... Anyway, it's totally not a problem if you want to go ahead and link those devices up. Personally, I would wait for the Powerlinc to arrive. :D

Posted on
Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:11 pm
gstuartw offline
Posts: 47
Joined: Jan 24, 2009
Location: Bartonville, TX

(No subject)

The PowerLinc was ordered and should be on its way and I'll wait for it to arrive to start linking devices. What exactly will be the process? Do I install all the devices and the PLM and software will find them? Of so how will they define each device? Or will I still have to go to each device one at a time and put them in program mode and then label them within Indigo?

Seems at the least I could just start installing the SwitchLincs and OutletLincs now and keep them dumb for now, just functioning as regular switches and outlets right?

I thought I read somewhere about the proper order of installing the software and PLM. Does one have to be connected or installed before the other?

One more thing. I plan on starting out running Indigo on my iBook but I suspect I'll grow tired of the thing having to be open 24/7 and switch to a Mac Mini. What work will that be moving everything from one to the other? Will Indigo just let me move it via firewire from one machine to the other?

Thanks,

Stuart

Posted on
Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:05 pm
jay (support) offline
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(No subject)

gstuartw wrote:
The PowerLinc was ordered and should be on its way and I'll wait for it to arrive to start linking devices. What exactly will be the process? Do I install all the devices and the PLM and software will find them? Of so how will they define each device? Or will I still have to go to each device one at a time and put them in program mode and then label them within Indigo?


Once you have Indigo installed and talking to the PowerLinc, you can just define each device within Indigo - you'll just need to know the INSTEON address for each.

Seems at the least I could just start installing the SwitchLincs and OutletLincs now and keep them dumb for now, just functioning as regular switches and outlets right?

gstuartw wrote:
I thought I read somewhere about the proper order of installing the software and PLM. Does one have to be connected or installed before the other?


Doesn't matter really.

gstuartw wrote:
One more thing. I plan on starting out running Indigo on my iBook but I suspect I'll grow tired of the thing having to be open 24/7 and switch to a Mac Mini. What work will that be moving everything from one to the other? Will Indigo just let me move it via firewire from one machine to the other?


Two steps are usually all that's needed if it's the same Indigo version in both places:

1) Copy over the /Library/Application Support/Perceptive Automation/Indigo 4/
2) Install Indigo on the new machine using the installer

Note, if you've made any changes to scripts/files delivered with Indigo, you'd need to manually reconcile those changes after you've done the install.

BTW, I personally like using a laptop - built-in UPS... ;)

Jay (Indigo Support)
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