Optimization questions

I'm adding devices to my slowly-growing z-wave setup and I have some random questions about association/sync and optimization.

Recently, I bought a couple of Zooz multi-sensors. Sitting in my kitchen, I used network-association and added or sync'd them quickly/painlessly to Indigo. Then I carried one of the devices - let's call it D - over to the bathroom (farther away from my central controller) and deployed it. At that point, I found that if I tried to perform the z-wave "optimize" function, either just D itself or for my entire network (which takes a long time), that the optimization reported that it "failed" and that at the end of the process, D had no neighbors.

Indigo was still receiving messages from the device. I created some triggers for the device to turn on some lights and the triggers worked, but I noticed that they had a pretty long delay before Indigo would respond (perhaps 5s or more). I also noticed that Indigo seemed to log 2-3 copies of each message from D (such as a temperature update) within a short time of each other.

From within Indigo, I could do things like change device parameters and such. Indigo would first Indicate that the device was asleep, then later the device would send a wake-up message (or whatever) and the changes would get pushed out successfully. So there was definitely some working two-way communication between Indigo and D.

My questions:
What does it mean when optimization fails for D?
What actions do I need to take when D fails optimization?
- Do I need to move or add some nodes on my network to try to create some viable mid-points on the path from my server to D?
- Or does it simply mean that I need to re-do some part of the association or sync process with D located in its working location?
Is it "normal" for a device such as D to fail z-wave optimization, but then to still seemingly be able to communicate pretty well with Indigo?
How/why should it be that packets find their way across my network in both directions, but somehow the z-wave optimization keeps failing?
Does this indicate possibly that I have some "misbehaving" z-wave nodes on my network?
Should I be able to repeat define/sync for devices that are already included in Indigo?

I have Z-Wave Node Matrix plugin, which I think is supposed to tell me something about my network. Reading some of the documentation on that plugin, I came to realize that in addition to network optimization, that re-doing define-and-sync from Indigo is sometimes supposed to also be useful for working out certain Z-wave problems. I discovered that I have a few other problems and issues in that area..

I have an Aeotec ZW056 doorbell - the device is working, but as part of the z-wave network experimentation I tried repeating define-and-sync. It starts for this device, but always ends with an error saying "Module might be asleep, or is unreachable." I even moved it and plugged it in right next to my Z-Stick and I always get the same error. What does this mean? I checked and I think this device is supposed to be Indigo-supported. Do I need to force a reset somehow? Or is this another case, where I need to hit the "wake" button multiple times during the process to wake the device and keep it awake (this is a ac-powered device, by the way).

I also tried to do a define-and-sync operation with D, but couldn't get it to succeed in the planned location. Later, just to make sure I understood what was happening, I took D back closer to my server and tried again, and was able to get define-and-sync to work, but the process was made more difficult by my not having a clear understanding of the steps. The device instructions state that there is first an inclusion(pairing) step that involves clicking an internal button once. I think that step is working fine. Then after that, there is a step referred to in the device instructions as "finalize inclusion" for which it says you should hit the internal button on the sensor twice. I'm not clear whether clicking twice is something that wakes the device up so Indigo can talk to it vs. if clicking twice is supposed to tell the device to stop listening (and go back to "sleep") at the end of process. Anyway, I had a lot of trouble getting this to work. I could see that Indigo and the device were communicating, but I could not discern the correct sequence of pushing buttons on the device once/twice to get through the define-and-sync process. I eventually got it to work, but I think it was by hitting the button, then waiting a few seconds and hitting it again - perhaps the effect was to first wake the device and then the second click either re-wakened it during a second step of the process or possibly just acted as a "stay away" command. Anyway, though I did get it to work, it is definitely not easily repeatable. Anyone else know how this is SUPPOSED to work?

Also, in a direct line between where I'm trying to get multisensor D to work and my server, I have a recent-model HomeSeer brand wall switch, which I assumed should work as a repeater. The switch is working fine and seems to communicate fine with Indigo, however I'm a bit curious about why this switch doesn't seem to appear on the neighbor lists of D and/or why the existence of this switch does fix/prevent problems like the one I'm having trying to get D to work in the desired location. Is this a sign of something not functioning properly?

So that's a whole bag of messy topics/questions. I'm looking for any help/advice/experience I can tap to understand the z-wave inclusion/sync process better. Thanks in advance.

Fellow Indigo user here. Not by any means an expert on z-wave or wireless communication.

I had the exact same problem with three Aeotec Nano Switch (ZW139) units. They would only perform all z-wave functions correctly when they could communicate DIRECTLY with node 1 of the z-wave network. Moving them to the desired location would always result in intermittent issues and the inability to perform SYNC and/or OPTIMIZE.

Ended up eventually replacing all of them with Levition DZ15S switches which were first installed near node 1, then subsequently moved to the desired locations, eventually replacing the Aeotec Nano Switches that performed marginally. Once in the definitive location, all Leviton switches were able to perform all z-wave fuctions without problem and never had any kind of problem.

My take is I guess not all z-wave devices have the same, or advertised, range..

I think the OP wins the longest post of the month competition.

I’ve never personally optimised my Zwave network as I’ve never needed to.

Even if I were to, in the event I’d physically moved a device (eg your D) I’d be doing define & sync on it when I moved it - that’s standard Zwave practice before optimisation existed.

Zwave devices need to be within 6 hops of the server, where your zstick is point 1 and your D is point 6. The Zwave bunny can take no more than 5 hops to get from server to D.

The further D is from the server, the longer every command will take to hop to it and back, so it may well be timing out particularly if your existing Zwave mesh isn’t up to date (ie if you’ve included A, B and C in your kitchen then moved them all around as well).

Optionally using the Zwave matrix plugin as a reference, start checking the neighbours of node 1, then their neighbours, and see if they match your real house layout. Optimise the ones that aren’t, starting nearest they server. If they’re battery, be prepared to wake them with their button-clicking combination of “wake me up”. Don’t try whole-network at once.

Peter


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Not an expert in ZWave but I have a few devices working very well, and I always do the 'pairing' on it's final location by unplugging the Stick and bringing it close to the final position of the device: then I do the pairing and bring back the stick to the computer and do the device creation and 'define and sync'.

I thought this was the good way to do it to make sure the device sees it's neighbours and establishes it's route correctly making use of other devices. I believe that if you move it after that step it will become sort of 'lost' in the mesh network and will not work well. I never tried to do that though, so I might be totally wrong !

I am the only one unplugging the Stick to do the pairing ?

Unplugging the stick is the old way

Newer sticks don’t have a button to click so you can’t do that, and if you’re including a Zwave Lock or other secure device that requires encryption, the stick has to be plugged into Indigo when the device is included.

Interfaces > Zwave > Start inclusion (with/without encryption) is the new, lazy way of doing it.


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Zwave devices need to be within 6 hops of the server, where your zstick is point 1 and your D is point 6. The Zwave bunny can take no more than 5 hops to get from server to D.

5 hops? Always thought it was 4 hops max.

It’s 6 devices including start and end, which is 5 hops, or 4 devices in between.


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Ah, got it. Thanks for clarifying.