Ghosts

For the past week, lights in my apartment have been randomly turning on and off (often at 3AM!) The catch is that Indigo doesn't list anything as happening in the log, so I'm not sure what to make of it. Also, it's not just one module, it's happened on 3 separate modules (often in the same night) and this hasn't ever happened on any of them until a week ago. I think it might be line noise, but if it is, I'm not sure what to do about it. Any suggestions so I can finally get a good nights sleep?

[matt (support)]

I think it might be line noise, but if it is, I'm not sure what to do about it. Any suggestions so I can finally get a good nights sleep?

It could be a few things. Do you have any other X10 transmitters (or 2 way devices) that might be sending out X10 signals?

From another post, it sounds like you are using the CM11. I suspect the CM11's internal scheduling is firing off events. If nothing is showing up in the Indigo event log, then Indigo is not the initiator of the X10 signal and for some reason cannot see the signal (possibly because the CM11 itself is sending it).

Let's try to clear the internal memory of the CM11. There are two ways to do this. I suggest you do both, but if you don't mind the possibility of losing some more sleep tonight, you can try #2 first:

1) Unplug the CM11. Remove the battery from the CM11 if it has one (you don't need the battery at all to use the CM11 with Indigo). Now wait for a long time. Some folks say 45 minutes is long enough. Some have said waiting 24 hours is not long enough. I'd suggest leaving it unplugged overnight. Plug it back in.

2) Make sure you have the latest version of Indigo (1.2.1). With the CM11 connected and the correct serial port selected in the preferences dialog, select the Interface->Clear CM11 Memory option. See if your Event Log window says it successfully cleared the memory.

That should help, presuming the CM11 is the culprit. If it still happens, let me know. Maybe we will have to call in someone with paranormal expertise.

regards,
matt

It could be a few things. Do you have any other X10 transmitters (or 2 way devices) that might be sending out X10 signals?

I have a wireless transceiver, however, if that was getting signals, wouldn't it show up in the Indigo log? In fact, if there was a valid "signal" being sent, wouldn't it show up in the Indigo log?

From another post, it sounds like you are using the CM11. I suspect the CM11's internal scheduling is firing off events. If nothing is showing up in the Indigo event log, then Indigo is not the initiator of the X10 signal and for some reason cannot see the signal (possibly because the CM11 itself is sending it).

I cleared the memory using v1.2.1 (but I had also done this when I first installed Indigo, however, I had version 1.2.0). The odd thing is that I was using Thinking Home and have never had this problem in the past, only this last week and a half or so.

Hopefully it won't happen again, but I still think it might be a problem with line noise. We have a telephone that seems to pick up static in the bedroom only, and others in the household have reported occasionally hearing buzzing from the circuit breakers. The problem with the office module could be due to a defective X-10 switch (it had a weird problem where if it was set to a specific house code, it would continuously be dimming and brightening in an endless cycle.) However, I doubt 3 other modules would have suddenly decided to die on the same day.

On a side, anyone know of any place to get decent dimmer switches for less than $20? Home automation costs an arm and a leg if you want anything better than generic X-10 brand stuff.

[matt (support)]

I have a wireless transceiver, however, if that was getting signals, wouldn't it show up in the Indigo log? In fact, if there was a valid "signal" being sent, wouldn't it show up in the Indigo log?

Yes, Indigo will report anything it sees on the powerline in the event log. The only reason this wouldn't happen would be if the signal wasn't reliably getting to the CM11 from the other transmitter.

The odd thing is that I was using Thinking Home and have never had this problem in the past, only this last week and a half or so.

I believe a quick blackout or brownout might cause the memory in the CM11 to be filled with garbage.

Hopefully it won't happen again, but I still think it might be a problem with line noise.

Very possible. Were the same modules coming on at about the same time in the middle of the night? If so, I would suspect the CM11. If it is random, then it might be noise.

On a side, anyone know of any place to get decent dimmer switches for less than $20? Home automation costs an arm and a leg if you want anything better than generic X-10 brand stuff.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen a good quality switch under $40. Prices do seem to have dropped over the last year or so, but a good switch is still going to cost you around $50 (hopefully, someone else will prove me wrong!). My favorite switch right now is the SwitchLinc PLC ($45). It doesn't have 2-way transmitting, but this can be a good thing for signal reliability. It also doesn't have built-in scene support, but with a controller such as Indigo this isn't needed. Switch level scene support has advantages since you can trigger an entire scene across multiple devices at once, but if your scene group just has two or three lights in it, then Indigo's Action Groups will work fine.

regards,
matt

Okay, I bought some new dimmer switches from X10 and replaced 2 of the ones that were turning off. (one of them, if you put it on an even unit code, would fade on, off, on, off forever.) here's the situation now:

No lights are randomly turning on (I don't think).
A couple of the lights seem to be randomly turning off (without a mention in the logs).

I can't think of anything that has changed as far as new electronics/devices/appliances since this started happening. I'm not sure how to go about debugging the situation and it's a pain in the a** to change the wall switches. Any suggestions?

(If I at least knew what was causing it, I could put on a filter, but I'm not sure what it is...it's happening on 2 different circuits, but never on the third).

[matt (support)]

...here's the situation now:

No lights are randomly turning on (I don't think).
A couple of the lights seem to be randomly turning off (without a mention in the logs).

What type of switches are you using? I believe the generic X10 switches (and modules) are more susceptible to false triggers than the higher end switches. The Leviton DHC switches have Intellisense and Smarthome SwitchLincs also have additional noise resistance. I believe PCS switches also have additional logic to check for noise.

They do cost more, but the prices on the more high end switches have been dropping. I like the SwitchLinc PLC as a reasonably priced switch (and I like the features of the SwitchLincs over Leviton or PCS).

If you are using a generic X10 switch, then it might be worth upgrading to one of these. The problem might go away, and you'll get a switch with more features.

regards,
matt

What type of switches are you using?

I'm using generic X10 switches because I can't afford anything nicer (I was barely able to afford the switches for my current setup). Plus, $40 a switch (for the one you suggested) is hard to justify when I can get 3 switches (that usually work) for the same price.

I still find it odd that the randomization only happens on the switches in certain locations. Switching out the module with a brand new one didn't fix the problem any. I even took all the computers and devices of the same circuit, but it is still happening. At least lights don't seem to be turning on as much randomly, but the office light is frequently turning off. It's set to auto-off after 60 minutes in Indigo, but it will turn off without any trigger or entry in the logs. Could this be a bug in Indigo? All these problems didn't start until around the time I switched to Indigo 1.2 (although I don't remember if it coincided exactly.)

If it's a problem with the line noise, does anyone know of a way to find out where the noise might be coming from? Unfortunately, I live in an apartment, so I can't exactly attach bridges and filters directly to the circuit breaker. I think at exactly the same time as the lights started to behave erratically, a telephone in the bedroom started having heavy amounts of static on the line. I've found that turning on and off the lights in the room have an effect on the amount of static on the phone. Could this be related? Any ideas on a fix?

On a side note, when I called X10 about this, they mentioned that I should never put anything on house code M because there is a lot of noise. Is this true? Currently, all my motion/wireless devices are on housecode M, however, the tranceiver is plugged into the through outlet of my CM-11, so I doubt it could be generating random signlals without Indigo detecting it first.

Sorry about all this complaining and such, but this is starting to seem like those horror stories of the automated house turning on the occupants! Plus, having lights turn on at 4AM tend to make you a little cranky!

[matt (support)]

Could this be a bug in Indigo? All these problems didn't start until around the time I switched to Indigo 1.2 (although I don't remember if it coincided exactly.)

I don't think it is Indigo. If Indigo isn't logging it, then I don't believe Indigo could be the initiator of the signal. I wouldn't 100% rule out the CM11's internal scheduler as the initiator of the signal, but I don't think that is it. You've cleared the memory and Indigo should report some type of activity in the log when the CM11 fires off a scheduled action. To be 100% sure, you could disconnect your CM11 from the outlet and see if you still have the random off problem.

I've found that turning on and off the lights in the room have an effect on the amount of static on the phone. Could this be related? Any ideas on a fix?

What type of light is it? If it is incandescent, it might be a loose filament in the bulb causing the static (try replacing the bulb and see if you still hear the static). If it is fluorescent, then it might be the transformer/ballast causing the static. They sell inline filters you can wire into the circuit if this is the case.

On a side note, when I called X10 about this, they mentioned that I should never put anything on house code M because there is a lot of noise.

Interesting. I've never heard that before, but after a google search it does appear that folks have more problems with house code M since it is represented as "0000" in the X10 protocol. So, you might very well have better luck choosing a different house code.

Plus, having lights turn on at 4AM tend to make you a little cranky!

Hang in there. It has been my experience that once you get your system signal stable, you'll have very few problems. It took a couple of filters and a signal bridge for me, but now I don't have any problems...

regards,
matt

To be 100% sure, you could disconnect your CM11 from the outlet and see if you still have the random off problem.

I think I've tried it with the CM11 disconnected and it still has the problem, but I'll try it again next time I notice it happening excessively.

What type of light is it?

Bedroom: string of christmas lights connected to an outlet controlled by the dimmer switch.
Bathroom: array of incandescents
Hallway: Ceiling incandescent controlled via x10 dimmer switch and companion switch
Office: Lamp connected through lamp module (never has problems, but is on a different circuit), and lamp connected to outlet that is controlled by x10 dimmer switch (this is the one that constantly has the auto-off problem.)

It has been my experience that once you get your system signal stable, you'll have very few problems.

Well, that's the thing. I've had a stable working setup since September 2002 and the lights turning on and static on the phone have only been experienced since about August. I can't think of any new computers or devices that were added to the house that could account for that. One thing we did do around that time (though I can't remember if it coincided) was to take down a large server we were using (one that had 3 power supplies). However, I just moved all the computers off the office dimmer circuit and onto the circuit that never has had problems, but the office still is doing the random off.

I'm wondering if the M signal from the motion detectors is passing through the CM11 and then gets corrupted at some point before it hits the switches. The random off did start after we added the motion sensors and they tend to generate a lot of chatter, which may account for the frequency of the random offs. I'll try switching all my wireless to a different house code and report back on the effects.

Thanks for all your help Matt.

To be 100% sure, you could disconnect your CM11 from the outlet and see if you still have the random off problem.

Last night I had the wireless tranceiver disconnected and the lights were randomly turning on again.

First, here's a rundown on how the apartment is set up:
2 bedroom, 2 bathroom with outlets/wall switches on the following circuits (not actual circuit numbers, but represents groups controlled by the same circuit breaker):
Circuit 1:
Master Bathroom
Master Bedroom
Circuit 2:
Foyer
Dining Room
Living Room
Part of the office (not including light switch)
Circuit 3:
Guest Bathroom
Hallway
Part of the office (including light switch)

Okay, here's a log of what's been happening:
September 2002:
Installed several dimmer switches (X10 brand)
Configuration:
B1 Living Room (Lamp Module)
B2 Dining Room (dimmer switch)
B3 Foyer (dimmer switch)
B4 Hallway (dimmer switch & companion)
B5 Master Bedroom (dimmer switch to outlet)
B6 Master Bathroom (dimmer switch)
B7 Office (lamp module on circuit 2, dimmer switch to outlet on circuit 3)
B10/11 Wireless keychain remote
B Wireless tranceiver
CM11 connected to computer and (plugged into the same surge protector). Surge plugged into outlet in office on circuit 2.

Everthing was working fine until
about August 2003:
Noticed lights randomly turning on, specifically:
Master Bedroom
Master Bathroom
Hallway
However, the problem was never observed on:
Foyer
Dining Room
Living Room

Tried disconnecting CM11 but continued to observer random on.
(I probably need to double check this).
Also tried connecting CM11 to outlet I think is on circuit 3.
Note: Indigo logs never report the random on or off.

Possibly relevant: also about the same time I noticed a phone that was in the bedroom started to have significant noise on the line. The same phone and DSL filter did not have any problems on any of the other phone jacks.

September 2003:
Bought new dimmer switches and motion detectors.
Replaced known defective dimmer in office (which would cycle dim on off if on certain house/unit code combinations).
Set up motion sensors & wireless tranceiver on house code M.
Connected wireless tranceiver to through port on CM11.
Noticed office light (B7) randomly turning off with no mention in Indigo logs.
Did not observe any lights randomly turning on.

October 2003:
Switched wireless devices and tranceiver to house code D.
Again, random on in the Circuit 1 & 3 lights. Still no problems on circuit 2.
Last night I tried disconnecting the wireless tranceiver and experienced master bedroom turn on randomly at 2:30 last night. Attempted to send "All Off" command from a controller (on house code C) which should (and the logs state did) trigger "All Off" command on all house codes. However, light would not turn off. Sent C2 off (which is scripted to send B5 off) and this successfully turned off the light.

My debugging hasn't been quite as systematic as it probably should have been, so if anyone wants to outline a complete and thourough test plan, I'm desparate enough to try just about anything. However, I would prefer to try stuff that does not involve turning off the circuit breaker (which includes uninstalling the dimmer switches) except as a last resort as I have servers on both circuits 2 and 3. Of course if it comes to this, I will do it, but I'd like to have a solid and efficient plan for testing that will involve the fewest number of power interruptions.

The hardest part of testing is that I have no way of reliably reproducing the problem. However, when the lights in the bedroom are randomly turning on (both before the motion detectors and just recently), there is a 90% chance that the bedroom or bathroom light will turn on at least once in a night. Again, a solution which involves the shortest number of nights of sleep interruption would be preferable.

The other complication is that it's an apartment and therefore I can't add filters and bridges to the main wiring. However, if someone has an idea of what needs to be done to test/fix the problem, I might be able to have the maintainance crew do the testing. I had them come out to check the noise on the phone line, and they said it was because of the dimmer switches (if the lights are on, there is more noise and it is noticeably clearer when the lights are off. However, there is no distinction between the light being off normally or via the kill switch. Even with the bedroom and bathroom lights off, there is still some noise. I guess the test plan should also include testing the noise on the phone with the kill switches of all the dimmer switches).

If anyone lives in the Atlanta area and has an oscilloscope or other electrical testing devices and wants to take a look, I'd be happy to have you take a look (and treat you to lunch afterwards!)

Well, I guess the test plan should include:
Use the kill switches on the dimmer switches to see which of those is adding to the noise on the bedroom phone. Should I call X10 and have them replace all the switches that are generating noise on the phone line?
Disconnecting the CM11 and Wireless tranceiver overnight to double check that it's not the CM11.
Connect the CM11 to circuit 1 to "sniff" for random signals.

Again, if someone could help me devise a more thourough test, I'd greatly appreciate it. It doesn't help the reputation of home automation when the system turns against you!

What about someone else in your apartment complex that shares wiring who also uses X10? Do you share wiring with other apartment units? Theoretically, that should show up in your Indigo log... but may be worth a shot asking around.

What about someone else in your apartment complex that shares wiring who also uses X10? Do you share wiring with other apartment units? Theoretically, that should show up in your Indigo log... but may be worth a shot asking around.

I was thinking about that, and that may be the case, but it should show up in the logs and I don't know any of my neighbors and I don't really feel comfortable knocking on doors asking if they have X10 systems....maybe on Halloween as I'll have an excuse to go knocking

Thanks for the reply.

[matt (support)]

Here is a thread I found on comp.home.automation about ghost signals that might be helpful:

ghost thread

Here are some observations:

- It sounds like there is a slight (but unlikely) probability that the CM11 is generating the signals. This is unlikely since: Indigo should report any scheduled macros that the CM11 fires, you've cleared your CM11 memory, you haven't mentioned that the lights are coming on in a consistent pattern (like a schedule).

- It isn't a wireless remote or motion detector since it happened when the transceiver was unplugged.

- It could be a neighbor on the same house code. Sounds like it is happening in the middle of the night -- any night owl neighbors? Solution: Change the house codes of all your modules.

- It could be noise generated by some appliance, power strip/surge protector, electronic power supply, loose wire, etc. You haven't mentioned using any X10 plug-in filters on any equipment -- are you? The surge protector I use on my A/V equipment was an X10 signal black hole. I'm not sure if it was putting noise on the line (never had ghost on problems), but it sure caused problems before I inlined a filter.

- Only specific modules/rooms/circuits are having problems. Indigo isn't seeing anything. This could be for a couple of reasons. If it is noise, then it may not be making it onto the other circuit branches. Or the noise may more often randomly match those particular modules' house code/device code pairs. Or those modules might just do a worse job of filtering out noise. I think the CM11 does a reasonable job of filtering noise, which might very well be why Indigo never sees it.

- Do the modules ever randomly turn on during the day or is it only when you are in stage 4 sleep? Perhaps it is your dream state causing the noise. Seriously, if it only happens at night that seems to be a clue. What is going on at night with your electronics/applicances that doesn't happen during the day? I suppose it could be your neighbors electronics/appliances that is causing the noise, which would be harder to track down.

While we continue to try to track this one down, I would go ahead and switch the house code on all your modules. It will give us another data point and might just let you get a full night of sleep.

regards,
matt

Thanks for the thread link. They basically said that X10 modules are cheap and are susceptible to noise. Unfortunately, I don't think I can afford to buy new modules....maybe just one nice one for the bedroom!

It could be noise generated by some appliance, power strip/surge protector, electronic power supply, loose wire, etc. You haven't mentioned using any X10 plug-in filters on any equipment -- are you?

No plug-in filters yet as I wouldn't know what to put it on. Nothing has changed in our system since last year and as a check, I moved all computers and other devices onto the same power strip as the CM11 on circuit 2.

Do the modules ever randomly turn on during the day or is it only when you are in stage 4 sleep?

No, it doesn't happen only at night.

I just noticed the hallway light turn off then on. This was in the log:
8:22:25 AM, 10/14/03
Time/Date Action _auto_off_Hallway
Received X10 "Office Motion Sensor" on
Sent X10 "Hallway" off
Trigger Action m Office Motion Detected
Action Group Office Movement
Sent X10 "Office" on

I think some of the random problems are triggered around the same time that daylight/night codes are sent form the motion sensors, but I can't prove it and the motion sensors are on a completely different house code than the lights.

I'm going to try changing the wireless codes back to M since there were no random ons when this was happening (only random offs).
Then I'm going to see which modules affect the telephone noise (see if the office and bedroom are somehow connected).
I'll change the bedroom, bathroom, office, and hallway house codes to J to try and avoid possible neighbor conflicts. If it is neighbor conflicts, then I'm going to have Indigo send all lights on on house code B every night at 3AM!
If that doesn't work, I'm going to try unplugging the CM11 overnight to double check that that isn't the source.

How does that plan sound? Anyone have any other suggestions/improvements for my first round of testing?

Thanks for all your help. It's funny, I've been using X10 for over 6 years and this is the first time I've had any problems. I seem to be a magnet for defective electronics!

Update:
Changing wireless codes back to M didn't do anything. I wonder what caused it to stop for that time.
Last night I left the CM11 AND the wireless transceiver unplugged and the lights turned on 3 times last night! This is (and is driving me) insane!

I guess I'll go around changing house codes today. Any other suggestions?