The Last Samurai

[jay (support)]

Given that this is the first complaint about this, I guess not many people used it! There are most likely a variety of ways of accomplishing the same thing.

This is something that would be implemented as part of our work to fully expose actions in the Python IOM. Demand has been very small for this, so it's never been high enough to get serious attention, but it will probably gain priority over time.

Not a complaint, per se. Just a factoid. I had asked about it years ago when AppleScript was first put on the chopping block. You had mentioned something similar, that exposing all that goodness was something that may or may not get priority. And I fully acknowledge that many of the things I did with AppleScript (and now with Python) are very obscure, used by few if not just me.

It was something along the lines of "tell Indigo to list every delayed action that contains an Action Group that... blah, blah, blah" (paraphrasing). It's how I managed to kill a specific delayed action when there was more than one scheduled.

I'll admit that the trade off was worth it, just as you correctly decided. Python was not all that hard to learn, and my system is considerably more reliable without AppleScript. And I've found work-arounds for what has yet to be developed, so I'm not missing AppleScript, for sure.

I'd much rather you were working on better voice control, if that's something you have in the works. I haven't been following where you're at on that, I ended up using iOS Shortcuts to send URLs to Indigo that trigger actions. That works, but I usually have to ask twice, which is annoying. Which then sometimes degrades to a one-way shouting match and some name calling! It has something to do with my iPads not staying 'alert' or connected, something like that. Or half the time Siri cannot understand me. Plus, I have to develop a separate shortcut for everything. I'd much prefer Siri just understood, somehow, to perform any Indigo Action Group by name. Any chance of that ever happening?

The more I use voice commands, the more I like doing so. Let's face it, HA is mostly about not getting off the couch. And if I can get to not even lifting a finger, hey, why not. Next I'll be asking you for mind control, as eventually even speaking will be too much effort!

[jay (support)]

Where would I be able to learn more about using Python scripts to create and/or clear delayed actions for specified devices? I am presently checking all of my [on] devices every minute to see if any have been left on longer then what I've allowed, and I want to rework all of that to use delayed actions instead. So ... create a delayed *off* action when the device is turned on, replace that with a new delayed *off* if a time extension is requested.

Check out the Indigo Object Model docs for Devices. If you have any specific questions, post them here.

[jay (support)]

I'd much rather you were working on better voice control, if that's something you have in the works.

[SNIP]

The more I use voice commands, the more I like doing so. Let's face it, HA is mostly about not getting off the couch. And if I can get to not even lifting a finger, hey, why not. Next I'll be asking you for mind control, as eventually even speaking will be too much effort!

There are currently two ways to use voice control from Indigo: Alexa and Siri. The latter you can accomplish using Shortcuts and the new HTTP API, or you can use the HomeKitLink Siri plugin, which is likely much less labor intensive to set up/manage.

Holy cow i had NO idea about Glen's new Homekit plugin and Siri control!

While I very much appreciate what 3rd-party plug-ins bring to the table, I will no longer make use of them, other than to maybe pilfer their Python (which I recently did with permission from the author of Powerview). My HA has become too dependent on them, only to have their developers lose interest or move on, leaving them to languish and eventually stop working when Indigo chooses to abandon or alter components on which they depend.

It's not a complaint, per se. I realize technology moves on, but to have to completely redo large portions of my HA to accommodate this problem, and/or create my own scripts to replace defunct plug-ins, is more and more becoming unsustainable.

I have to somehow take on replacing NOAA+ next, and that'll be a week of work, no doubt. And it'll keep me from updating Indigo until I do. Which is kind'a a rub for me. I'm paying annually for Indigo, but I still have to do a significant amount of work to compensate for the work-arounds necessary due to the upgrading of Indigo! An odd circular conundrum.

I hope this criticism is accepted in the spirit in which it is given. As a caution to others getting involved with plug-ins, and as an encouragement to Indigo's developers to give this issue some thought, perhaps inspiring some sort of solution I cannot imagine on my own.

Holy cow i had NO idea about Glen's new Homekit plugin and Siri control!

Have released the latest 0.6.5 to store - after seeing you had missed it!

While I very much appreciate what 3rd-party plug-ins bring to the table, I will no longer make use of them, other than to maybe pilfer their Python (which I recently did with permission from the author of Powerview). My HA has become too dependent on them, only to have their developers lose interest or move on, leaving them to languish and eventually stop working when Indigo chooses to abandon or alter components on which they depend.

It's not a complaint, per se. I realize technology moves on, but to have to completely redo large portions of my HA to accommodate this problem, and/or create my own scripts to replace defunct plug-ins, is more and more becoming unsustainable.

I have to somehow take on replacing NOAA+ next, and that'll be a week of work, no doubt. And it'll keep me from updating Indigo until I do. Which is kind'a a rub for me. I'm paying annually for Indigo, but I still have to do a significant amount of work to compensate for the work-arounds necessary due to the upgrading of Indigo! An odd circular conundrum.

I hope this criticism is accepted in the spirit in which it is given. As a caution to others getting involved with plug-ins, and as an encouragement to Indigo's developers to give this issue some thought, perhaps inspiring some sort of solution I cannot imagine on my own.

Certainly you have a interesting take on things, and I can see your sentiment but I think you are “cutting off nose to spite face” almost…. Whilst it is annoying when things stop working, not ever using said things because they might stop is missing out really!

Whilst a forced Indigo python2 to python3 change has been fairly major, no such future event is likely to occur. Thats not to say that plugins might be retired or stop working, but in my experience that also happens because of other deeper aspects (Apple, devices etc) something that any solution (including home rolled) would also face. So at least half the time you aren’t avoiding that cause of issue, by avoiding their use altogether.

Glenn


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I hope this criticism is accepted in the spirit in which it is given. As a caution to others getting involved with plug-ins, and as an encouragement to Indigo's developers to give this issue some thought, perhaps inspiring some sort of solution I cannot imagine on my own.

I absolutely understand the frustration.

• The Python 2 to Python 3 conversion was a huge update and Matt & Jay held on as long as they could before making the switch. Python.org made the Python 2 sunset announcement in 2008(!) and support was ended in 2020 (it was 2015 at first, but it was extended). Indigo has provided support for Python 2 and 3 for a long time to allow for the transition, but continuing to support both versions is unsustainable. This change was inevitable.
• The deprecation of AppleScript was caused by Apple (not Indigo) and the timing of the change was a complete surprise--done in a dot release instead of a major release. So the timing of this change was externally driven and was likewise inevitable.
• Some plugins are based on external libraries that have not been updated to Python 3 or may have otherwise broken--which has nothing to do with Indigo or the plugin developers.
• Some plugins are written by users for their own benefit and they share them with the community in case others might find them useful (no guarantees). This is the nature of open source.

That said, I've deprecated the Fantastic Weather plugin for much the same type of frustration. I initially wrote the WUnderground plugin only to have the API go commercial. I rewrote the plugin to support the Dark Sky API and published the Fantastic Weather plugin only to have that API go commercial. I'm not dropping use of all APIs because of this experience; rather, I'm just being more selective in which ones I use and how I use them (echoing Glenn's sentiment).

I feel that with DIY home automation (DIY anything, really) these types of risks are part of the ethos. For me personally, that's part of the fun.

This is a really interesting conversation. I can certainly see the frustration when looking for a stable solution that rarely needs upkeep. I think that's where the balance between functionality and flexibility comes in. There are HA solutions out there that "may" seem more stable, because they are only offering tried and true functionality. Then there's Indigo, which is extremely flexible, but lives on a more bleeding edge side of the spectrum and requires more time hands on to adjust to changes.

Like Dave, I also find it really fun to fix issues and keep changing the way I solve HA tasks. The true backbone of my need for HA is mostly providing access to turn on lights and off, lock doors, access the alarm systems. That stuff seems pretty bulletproof based on the underlying Indigo OOTB feature set that Matt and Jay have crafted over the years. Everything else is really out of fun and convenience. So if plugins are deprecated or BMW changes their API (again), I'm not losing critical functionality while fixes are sorted out.

So in the end I guess it's what you need and what you're looking for. I wouldn't recommend Indigo for my parents or my brother because they are mostly looking for a "set it and forget it" solution.

I love the flexibility that Indigo offers, because if you look hard enough you can solve almost any HA issue. And if you can't, you can build a plugin yourself to do it. These forums are so helpful when looking for solutions.

Lastly - I would absolutely recommend building your own plugin. It's relatively simple since you already know Python. And it really gives you an understanding of how Indigo works.

Don't get me wrong. Indigo's flexibility, and its Python integration "abilities," is what I most brag about when describing Indigo to others. I'm doing some amazing things with Indigo and Python that I am quite sure rivals or exceeds any other HA software's capability. And I too have taken on my HA programming as a most enjoyable hobby. But having to "fix" broken code is the least enjoyable aspect of that hobby (for me) . First AppleScript, then Python, and now plug-ins.

I only meant to caution others about something I was blissfully unaware of when I first started exploring scripting and plug-ins. That scripts and plug-ins can go away on a "moment's" notice, and that you'll either lose capabilities to which you've become accustomed, or you'll have to spend what might be a significant amount of effort to get that capability back. And, for me at least, the nature of HA development is a more than a little addictive, to the point where my simple four-device X-10 lighting control has grown into monster with tentacles wrapped around every aspect of how my house functions.

I understand all the reasons for the decisions Matt and Jay have made over the years for moving on from AppleScript and Python 2, etc. I wasn't pointing fingers, and they or any of us don't need to defend those decisions. But it doesn't change the fact that pushing Indigo past the usefulness of just turning lights on and off comes at a cost. And I never really considered that before I got into scripting and plug-ins. The only thing I can suggest that Indigo could maybe do a better job at is cautioning about this phenomenon somewhere, some how. Is that their job? Maybe. I only meant to ask them to consider it (or some other solution to this dilemma). As we all know: with great power comes great responsibility!

Yes, my HA's core functionality has been rock solid, due to Matt's and Jay's care and attention. I don't think I've ever used a more stable, virtually bug-free piece of software. Kudos to them for that. And the notion that other Indigo users can and do share their work with us makes for a great community effort, and a better product, a better HA experience. I fully support the way Indigo has encouraged and has provided for that. But I would argue that my plugin dependencies, somewhere along the way, morphed from cool convenience to "necessity," and losing them is a bigger deal for me than maybe it is for others.

For example, I start my day and plan my week based on weather. The details of which are staring me in the face as I open my eyes each morning, courtesy of an always-on iPad, Indigo, Python and the NOAA+ plug-in. Yah, that's technically a convenience, but it's also become a significant part of my lifestyle. The loss of NOAA+ means I either have to rebuild it, or alter my lifestyle. My only point is: HA, for me, has evolved from hobby to becoming more of a necessity. In the same way that my stove is just a mere "convenience," I could cook my meals in my yard over a small camp fire, but in reality it is a necessity for my lifestyle. I consider my HA system just another appliance in my home. But one I regard a necessity just as I do my kitchen appliances, my laundry machines, my yard and power tools, etc, etc. I don't like fixing and/or replacing Indigo or its "parts" any more than I do any of my other appliances!

So, again, just pointing out that bolting third-party "parts" onto your Indigo "appliance" can compromise your overall experience and quite possibly increase its maintenance "costs."

In the grand scheme of things, elevating anything from convenience to necessity, and expecting it to remain stable, without maintenance or replacement, fovever, is just not realistic, at all. But that doesn't stop me from wishing it so.

[jay (support)]

That scripts and plug-ins can go away on a "moment's" notice

While I understand your frustration, this is, at best, an exaggeration. In all the scenarios that you mention (AppleScript, Python2->3), we gave years (no exaggeration) of warning about the changes that would be coming. Even when Apple pulled a fast-one on us and removed Python 2 unexpectedly in a dot release, we rushed out our planned release and continued to support both versions of Python even though it caused us significant hacking and extended testing.

Saying that any of these changes came at a moment's notice is just wrong and inflammatory.

Apologies.