Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

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Posted on
Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:52 pm
Colorado4Wheeler offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Swancoat wrote:
but even the newest units are bit dated (and I fear that much closer to their last OS Upgrade),

I wouldn't worry about that part at all. First off, I just finished upgrading one of the 2010 Mini's sitting around the house to High Sierra with zero issues. Even if that were to happen, so what, Indigo is going to support "older" systems for quite a while. I'll bet there are more than a few Yosemite users still running Indigo right now.

Shutter wrote:
I'm running Indigo, SecuritySpy, and Plex on a 2012 MacBook Air that is still on Sierra

Wow, that's impressive. I doubt I could even get my "core load" to work with anything less than 8GB. Right now the Indigo "core system" runs on a 16GB Mini while SecuritySpy runs on it's own system. Your cameras must be low resolution and you must only have a couple of them because SecuritySpy will eat processors like candy if you are doing any kind of regular recording or motion detection.

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Posted on
Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:00 pm
noel1983 offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Interesting challenge. I’d also suggest second hand mac pro’s. Facebook Marketplace (in the UK at least) can be a great source of apple kit. It’s feeding my Apple addiction some stuff I keep some I move on and make a little money on.

My experience is that I see very little slow down on my machines, I’ve got a couple with SSDs and they make a heck of a difference.

Posted on
Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:22 pm
jay (support) offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Swancoat wrote:
I'm really surprised the market segment is so small. Like the vast majority of the people with desktop macs are totally on board with getting a new screen every time they get a new computer (and somewhat forced to abide by what's offered - if you want a really fast iMac, you need a big screen, like it or not).


The consumer desktop market has been shrinking for years, so it's not surprising that Apple (primarily a consumer product company) wouldn't be putting much effort behind it beyond the iMac. First laptop sales surpassed them and now add in tablets - desktops are just becoming a niche consumer computing market.

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Posted on
Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:26 pm
Swancoat offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

jay (support) wrote:
Swancoat wrote:
I'm really surprised the market segment is so small. Like the vast majority of the people with desktop macs are totally on board with getting a new screen every time they get a new computer (and somewhat forced to abide by what's offered - if you want a really fast iMac, you need a big screen, like it or not).


The consumer desktop market has been shrinking for years, so it's not surprising that Apple (primarily a consumer product company) wouldn't be putting much effort behind it beyond the iMac. First laptop sales surpassed them and now add in tablets - desktops are just becoming a niche consumer computing market.

I totally agree with all of that... but part of me thinks it's also got to be exponentially EASIER to whip up a simple screenless desktop than a crazy thin iMac or iPhone stuffed with tech. Like, it HAS to be worth the cost to just put some current guts in a mac mini form factor, right? Like a fraction of iPhone X R&D. (or so that's how I think. Clearly, I'm wrong as evidenced by their offerings...)

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Posted on
Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:31 pm
Swancoat offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

noel1983 wrote:
Interesting challenge. I’d also suggest second hand mac pro’s. Facebook Marketplace (in the UK at least) can be a great source of apple kit. It’s feeding my Apple addiction some stuff I keep some I move on and make a little money on.

My experience is that I see very little slow down on my machines, I’ve got a couple with SSDs and they make a heck of a difference.


Are geekbench ratings actually indicative of anything? I mean, across all the processor generations with the same names, that's the only way I can really compare these things (and obviously, distilling it all down to one number is not going to tell the whole story at all).

But anyway, for any given price point of a used Mac Pro, I can go to Apple and find a brand new iMac (with a screen I don't want) that murders it per those ratings.

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Posted on
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:24 pm
Different Computers offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Swancoat wrote:
but part of me thinks it's also got to be exponentially EASIER to whip up a simple screenless desktop than a crazy thin iMac or iPhone stuffed with tech. Like, it HAS to be worth the cost to just put some current guts in a mac mini form factor, right


You're not wrong, you're just not thinking about it the way Apple does. They don't think "what will be easy" they think in terms of either creating a new market, or sucking all the profit out of an existing one. "Can we sell a million of these a year minimum, and make >20% margins doing so?" is more their bar for bringing a product to market.

I'm not saying it's the best way, but it's clearly a successful way.

I think one of the challenges with Minis is that their apparent ease of use for a naive user is no better than a commodity Acer desktop. That is, they both require plugging in "a lot" of cables, which fills many naive users with dread. Yes, Mac OS is way easier to use than Windows, but keep in mind there is a market segment that is larger than our techie propeller head segment who literally cannot tell whether they're using Mac OS or Windows by looking at the desktop.

All that said, when Apple starts rolling out their own silicon, I'm looking forward to the new Mac Mini. I think having hitched themselves to Intel, they find they can't make a Mac Mini that sells to a large enough market for a large enough profit. Once the Intel premium is gone, that will likely change.

SmartThings refugee, so happy to be on Indigo. Monterey on a base M1 Mini w/Harmony Hub, Hue, DomoPad, Dynamic URL, Device Extensions, HomeKitLink, Grafana, Plex, uniFAP, Fantastic Weather, Nanoleaf, LED Simple Effects, Bond Home, Camect.

Posted on
Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:58 pm
jay (support) offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Different Computers wrote:
All that said, when Apple starts rolling out their own silicon, I'm looking forward to the new Mac Mini. I think having hitched themselves to Intel, they find they can't make a Mac Mini that sells to a large enough market for a large enough profit. Once the Intel premium is gone, that will likely change.


Interesting theory (that a new mini will appear with an ARM-based CPU). I'm pretty doubtful because I think the market is just too small to justify it (as you point out, it's about how much $ they can make). Factor in support, which is probably quite high on a consumer desktop like the mini, and I just don't see it happening.

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Posted on
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:43 am
Swancoat offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

The more I read this thread and think about things, the more I think that just from a performance point of view, the smart thing for me to do is just go to an SSD in my current iMac.

That being said... I still have some desire to switch out to a screenless mac because we upgraded some hardware at work, and I snagged two 30" Dell screens, so I thought it would be good opportunity to reorganize/clean up my desk (support from my wife here justifies some spend).

I think I may end up finding a used Mini to do the job. It might be only a slight performance bump (but I can always move it to an SSD) and the less I spend, the better I'll feel if I need to upgrade later. Used mac Pros are pretty darn tempting, but I think I mainly want one because they're cool.

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Posted on
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:36 am
FlyingDiver offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Swancoat wrote:
I think I may end up finding a used Mini to do the job. It might be only a slight performance bump (but I can always move it to an SSD) and the less I spend, the better I'll feel if I need to upgrade later. Used mac Pros are pretty darn tempting, but I think I mainly want one because they're cool.


I had to get a used Mac Pro in addition to my Mac mini when I added cameras to Security Spy. SS was killing the mini, it just doesn't have enough cores. So now I'm running SS on the Pro and Indigo on the mini. The pro could do both, I'm sure. If the mini ever dies or I need it for something else, I'll move Indigo to the Pro.

So just be aware that running SS on a mini is only good for a few cameras.

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Posted on
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:38 am
Colorado4Wheeler offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Swancoat wrote:
I think I may end up finding a used Mini to do the job.

If it were me that's what I would do. I can pick up Mini's all day on eBay for $100-$200 that are perfectly fine for Indigo. While I've not seen a poll I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the more complex Indigo setups are on headless Mini's.

FlyingDiver wrote:
I had to get a used Mac Pro in addition to my Mac mini when I added cameras to Security Spy

Same here. Once I got past 8 cameras I went Pro for SS and Indigo. Once I got to 16 I moved Indigo to a 16GB Mini and left SS as the only thing on the Pro.

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Posted on
Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:57 am
Swancoat offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Well, this machine will likely be a combination of my daily use machine and Indigo. I've already offloaded Security Spy to a different old iMac. If I grab a Mini, then my current iMac will become the new SecuritySpy Cam.

I'm curious about what kind of camera setups you guys are running. My SecuritySpy iMac is OLD. Like 2007 20.5" Core 2 Duo old. But it ONLY runs SecuritySpy (and Synergy for keyboard/mouse).

I have 8 Cameras, 2 are just Baby Monitor/Playroom cams indoors and I don't track motion on them or anything. But I have 6 outdoor cams, and they run at 1920*1080, but I've knocked the frame rates down to like 5 fps and there's no transcoding for overlays. I overlay date/time/name right from the camera itself and SecuritySpy just takes the H.264 stream. I DO watch them for motion though... so there's that.

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Posted on
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:01 am
FlyingDiver offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Here's mine. Pretty high resolution and frame rate.
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Screen Shot 2018-06-06 at 9.59.19 AM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-06-06 at 9.59.19 AM.jpg (154.27 KiB) Viewed 2684 times

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Posted on
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:01 am
Colorado4Wheeler offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Swancoat wrote:
I have 8 Cameras, 2 are just Baby Monitor/Playroom cams indoors and I don't track motion on them or anything. But I have 6 outdoor cams, and they run at 1920*1080, but I've knocked the frame rates down to like 5 fps and there's no transcoding for overlays. I overlay date/time/name right from the camera itself and SecuritySpy just takes the H.264 stream. I DO watch them for motion though... so there's that.

You've done a good job keeping SS at bay as much as you can. Overlays are killers! Bensoftware has a great computer calculator that can help you figure out what you need at this url. Ben's also great at responding to emails if you have any questions about what you might need. You can grab diagnostics from SS and send them to him and he'll tell you what you can do.

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Posted on
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:54 am
Shutter offline
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Re: Trying to upgrade my Mac, but there's nowhere to go...

Colorado4Wheeler wrote:
Wow, that's impressive. I doubt I could even get my "core load" to work with anything less than 8GB. Right now the Indigo "core system" runs on a 16GB Mini while SecuritySpy runs on it's own system. Your cameras must be low resolution and you must only have a couple of them because SecuritySpy will eat processors like candy if you are doing any kind of regular recording or motion detection.


It's and HD camera, but only the one camera.

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