Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

Posted on
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:40 pm
peszko offline
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Re: Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

mclass wrote:
.... or is this the catalyst for porting Indigo to a more cost effective, dedicated single board computer (like the raspberry pi 4)?


I'd love Indigo server on raspberry pi.

Posted on
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:56 pm
srkinard offline
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Re: Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

After 2 days with Big Sur (it both shows as 10.16 in System Info and as Versions 11.0 in About this Mac...end of macOS 10 now?) I've realized that the ported iOS version of Messages and so on works just fine on the Mac and doesn't really feel like it's a weird version of the iPad or iPhone app.

I think it's quite possible to make an app that works quite well on any of the platform. Imagine the Indigo Client app as device agnostic? Be able to have the screens as they are now and the menus as they are now, but open it on your iPad and have tabbed versions of it and popup items vs menubar ones? Edit/add/delete devices on your iPad? Design control pages on the iPad or iPhone itself. Use the control pages on the Mac app in a perfect window copy of the iOS app, not browser?

Based on some of the conversation I've had with some folks in the know, they ultimate plan is to have Xcode help you convert the UI elements to fit your target device's interface style.

It'll be interesting to say the least. Maybe tie in HomeKit devices natively too...have a hybrid z-wave/insteon/HomeKit ecosystem...

I'm dreaming now...

Posted on
Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:05 pm
jay (support) offline
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Re: Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

srkinard wrote:
Based on some of the conversation I've had with some folks in the know, they ultimate plan is to have Xcode help you convert the UI elements to fit your target device's interface style.


I really hope they do an overhaul of Xcode - it's been a mess for years now. My guess however is that the only real enhancements to Xcode will be Swift/SwiftUI related. That leaves us (and a lot of other Mac software) out in the cold unfortunately (we're all C++ and Objective-C code).

srkinard wrote:
Maybe tie in HomeKit devices natively too...have a hybrid z-wave/insteon/HomeKit ecosystem...


I did notice that on one of those large Big Sur slides about capabilities HomeKit was listed. We'll be monitoring what exactly that means as we can find more details. Not holding my breath of course given their refusal to license software bridges, but one can always hope.

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Posted on
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:34 pm
RogueProeliator offline
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Re: Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

I don't think that I have seen any real mention of this, but I wonder how this affects running non-macOS applications going foward:

First, I am assuming that BootCamp is just toast since there isn't a good Windows 10 ARM build - unless Microsoft has something in store for us later. I wouldn't count on it near-term; I'd bet native Windows support is history at least in the near term.

Second, I wonder how this affects the various virtualization solutions out there - Parallels, VMWare, etc. As far as I know, Apples does not have any kind of virtualization built into processors like Intel does. Of course, that doesn't mean a virtualization can't run, just that you lose some performance optimizations. I am assuming that at least Parallels will re-develop their code to run x86 on top of ARM, but that sounds to me like a monumental task (note I am FAR from a OS/virtualization developer, haven't done that type of development in 20+ years). I wouldn't be surprised if one or more drop out.

I haven't heard anything from news, but haven't gone looking for it. Just thought of it as my son was using Parallels to run a game on the MacPro and it caught my attention.

Posted on
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:50 pm
jltnol offline
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Re: Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

Didn't really consider the issue of running other OS's on Mac hardware as I've twiddled with them in the past. I've always found them two steps too geeky to me to understand, but clearly Intel processors make all of that possible. I've used Basecamp and Parallels as well, but now don't use either. It'll be curios to see how this all plays out.

Mypersonal take on this is Apple has moved from content creation to content consumption, and from storing stuff on your local hard drive to storing your files in somebody's cloud.. I just wonder how long developers will continue to follow Apple over the proverbial cliff. I use(d) Avid's ProTools for years, and they have a hard time getting their software to work on the latest OS releases, I don't think Avid is in the best financial shape to start with, so finding the resources to make this transition will be a challenge for them for sure. I'm guessing its going to take them at least two years to make this happen, if at all.

It will be interesting to watch to say the least.

Posted on
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:36 pm
jay (support) offline
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Re: Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

RogueProeliator wrote:
I don't think that I have seen any real mention of this, but I wonder how this affects running non-macOS applications going foward


The information is somewhat conflicting. During the Keynote (or possibly platform state of the union or both), they made pretty big deal about virtualization. In fact, I believe they showed linux running in Parallels on Apple Silicon hardware with Big Sur. They also said they were working with Docker to get that working as well.

Then, a couple of days ago, I heard that boot camp is gone (makes sense) and that Rosetta wasn't useful for virtualization tools like Parallels and that they would have to build the translation/emulation layer themselves. You will recall that Parallels did x86 emulation on PowerPC years ago, so it's quite possible that they (perhaps with help from Apple) have gotten that technology ported over to ARM.

So my best guess is that Parallels will use it's emulation layer (probably with help from Apple), Docker containers will also use some kind of emulation (perhaps a restricted licensed version from Parallels/Apple), that Big Sur has some kind of lower-level virtualization stuff (like a hypervisor) in the OS to help out with these kinds of efforts.

Then again, I could be totally wrong (wouldn't be the first time). :lol:

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Posted on
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:50 pm
jay (support) offline
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Re: Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

jltnol wrote:
Mypersonal take on this is Apple has moved from content creation to content consumption, and from storing stuff on your local hard drive to storing your files in somebody's cloud.. I just wonder how long developers will continue to follow Apple over the proverbial cliff.


I don't know - professional(ish) content creation is a huge part of the Mac business. I really can't see them introduce the high-end Mac Pro lineup only to kill it a year or two later. This transition to ARM has had to be in the works for many years. The R&D and development cost of the Mac Pro line seems like a really big waste if they were only going to dump that market. Apple has been a huge part of the content creation market (in various forms) for many years (often driving it forward) and I just don't see them giving that up.

But I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time... :lol:

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Posted on
Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:39 pm
RogueProeliator offline
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Re: Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

The information is somewhat conflicting. During the Keynote (or possibly platform state of the union or both), they made pretty big deal about virtualization. In fact, I believe they showed linux running in Parallels on Apple Silicon hardware with Big Sur. They also said they were working with Docker to get that working as well.

Okay, well that is at least somewhat promising... I didn't watch the keynote, just read some recaps. So promising in at least they seem to hopefully be planning to support some level. I will admit to having very little real experience with Docker short of a few experiments, but I don't think that is going to be a great consumer experience; might help with dev and geeky stuff though.

So my best guess is that Parallels will use it's emulation layer (probably with help from Apple), Docker containers will also use some kind of emulation (perhaps a restricted licensed version from Parallels/Apple), that Big Sur has some kind of lower-level virtualization stuff (like a hypervisor) in the OS to help out with these kinds of efforts.

Yeah, I just worry that without the hardware support in the processor then they are at a disadvantage. I guess one could argue that fewer people need all that much performance out of a VM setup these days, so maybe that is acceptable. I believe Apple, at least at one point, actually had a hypervisor extension. In Parallels you could choose to use Apple's or their own, though I am almost positive that required the hardware capabilities (specifically the Xeons). Been a while since I looked at that though.

Parallels is a decently impress software suite; I'm surprised of the performance you can still get out of even somewhat older MacPro hardware (circa 2012) within the VM. I just find it slightly harder to believe VMWare will invest any effort into it, and I don't think VirtualBox runs out of x86 family, though to steal your phrase, "I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time."

(Or people will say "who cares" about virtualization when their Mac laptop lasts 4x as long on battery... :-))

Posted on
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:52 am
bschollnick2 offline
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Re: Apple move from Intel to Apple Silicon

RogueProeliator wrote:
The information is somewhat conflicting. During the Keynote (or possibly platform state of the union or both), they made pretty big deal about virtualization. In fact, I believe they showed linux running in Parallels on Apple Silicon hardware with Big Sur. They also said they were working with Docker to get that working as well.

Okay, well that is at least somewhat promising... I didn't watch the keynote, just read some recaps. So promising in at least they seem to hopefully be planning to support some level. I will admit to having very little real experience with Docker short of a few experiments, but I don't think that is going to be a great consumer experience; might help with dev and geeky stuff though.


Rogue, just to be clear, virtualization is not going to support X86, only ARM virtualization, unless Apple has some miracle technology they are not showing...
So no Emulation layer is going to be needed for ARM virtualization.

If someone tries X86 code, Big Sur does support X86 emulation, but it's doubtful that X86 emulation (of non-Macintosh Applications) will be useful. Back in PowerPC days, running Parallels, etc, for a Windows session was slow, and usable, but just usable.

I personally am not going to rule anything out. For all we know this beast will have 2x or 3x processors, and a "magic" chip that solves some of these problems.

But I'm glad that I have a dedicated PC for the near future. Heck, my 2013 iMac isn't supported in Big Sur, and I'll have to decide what I want to do. Depending on pricing, etc, I'll probably be buying a new Macintosh, but it's debatable at this point.

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