[ANSWERED]: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

Posted on
Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:05 am
NucDoc offline
Posts: 6
Joined: Nov 11, 2014

[ANSWERED]: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

I have been using Indigo to control multiple insteon devices (>60 after major renovations) for several years, and have found it a considerable step up from my old X10 system. I recently decided to try and use some of the old X10 wireless controllers that I have, which in some ways are nicer than the currently available insteon devices. I plugged in a RR501 transceiver module and was able to control X10 devices and send commands to Indigo right away (also works with a CM15A). So I wrote some triggers to control insteon devices and they work just fine - for example:
Received X10 ------------- A7 on
Trigger ---------------------- X10 A7 Lights On
Sent INSTEON ----------- "Dining Room Main" on to 40

Then I wrote a trigger to activate a scene I commonly use, and got a very strange result - the commands keep being sent over & over (like an infinite loop). The only way to stop it is to send another insteon device command from the console (several times). Log looks like this:
Received X10 ------------- A7 on
Trigger ---------------------- X10 A7 Lights On
Sent INSTEON ----------- "PowerLinc Interface" on (scene 1 - Downstairs Low Light)
Received X10 ------------- A7 on
Trigger ---------------------- X10 A7 Lights On
Sent INSTEON ----------- "PowerLinc Interface" on (scene 1 - Downstairs Low Light)
Received X10 ------------- A7 on
etc., etc.,etc.....

I tried adding a simple action after the scene action, but that just gets repeated too. Any idea what is going on and how to fix it?

Posted on
Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:40 pm
jay (support) offline
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 18200
Joined: Mar 19, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

It seems likely that one of the INSTEON devices in your "scene 1 - Downstairs Low Light" is also configured with the X10 address A7 - so when the scene turns on the device it sends out an X10 A7 ON thus triggering an infinite loop. Try changing the address on the device that's originally sending the A7 ON to a different house/unit code and see if the problem persists.

Jay (Indigo Support)
Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn

Posted on
Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:27 pm
NucDoc offline
Posts: 6
Joined: Nov 11, 2014

Re: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

Nope. Never used X10 before with this system so no reason there should be anything with any X10 address. Also, have tried several different X10 addresses (A1, A2, A7, A15, etc), and several different scenes, all with the same result.

Posted on
Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:24 pm
jay (support) offline
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 18200
Joined: Mar 19, 2008
Location: Austin, Texas

Re: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

Well - something is putting those extra X10 commands on the power line. What kind of device are you using to trigger? Any chance it's faulty and sending repeated commands? Here's the problem as indicated in your log:

Code: Select all
 Received X10 ------------- A7 on


That's the PowerLinc telling Indigo that it saw an A7 on command repeatedly and suspiciously after sending the INSTEON scene command. Note that sometimes INSTEON devices ship with X10 enabled on them so you might not have actually enabled it yourself.

Try disabling the "X10 A7 Lights On" trigger and see if activating whatever device is generating the A7 on originally triggers repeated A7 on commands. If it stops, then reenable the trigger but delete the INSTEON Scene send and just do something else. If it still doesn't repeat, then something about that scene is causing something to repeat X10 commands.

Jay (Indigo Support)
Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn

Posted on
Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:34 pm
NucDoc offline
Posts: 6
Joined: Nov 11, 2014

Re: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

I have tested this extensively, and I have complete success with several X10 wireless controllers and two X10 wireless transceivers with any house code (A, B, C, 1, 2, 3, etc). They communicate with Indigo and turn on/off/dim/brighten any light in my house in a proper well controlled manner, provided I do it using actions or action groups. However, if I use a scene, any scene, no matter which scene, no matter how many/few devices it controls, including a new scene that I just wrote, I get the repeating scenario. All the scenes work fine with virtually identical triggers using an insteon wireless device.

Posted on
Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:54 pm
matt (support) offline
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 21411
Joined: Jan 27, 2003
Location: Texas

Re: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

Does the problem only occur if the PowerLinc scene command is sent immediately after the X10 command is received? What happens if you add a delay to the action (Delay by N seconds checkbox)?

And do you have an X10 signal repeater or booster? If so, try unplugging or disconnecting them to see if they are causing the problem.

Image

Posted on
Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:22 pm
NucDoc offline
Posts: 6
Joined: Nov 11, 2014

Re: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

WOW - Brilliant!!! If I put in a delay of 2 or more seconds, it works!!!!! (1 second was too short) No repeaters or boosters

Wonder why???

Posted on
Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:47 pm
matt (support) offline
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 21411
Joined: Jan 27, 2003
Location: Texas

Re: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

Something is causing the PowerLinc to get confused, but I'm not sure what. Indigo just reports what the PowerLinc sends it, which in this case is always an echo of the X10 command if you send an INSTEON group immediately after an X10 command is received.

Image

Posted on
Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:15 pm
kyphos offline
Posts: 54
Joined: Dec 17, 2014

Re: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

@NucDoc,
I also have an old X10 system, including an RR501, a couple of X10 mini-keypads, and a UR19A 'SuperRemote'.
I'm trying to figure out how to 'connect' the RR501 to Indigo.
You wrote: "I plugged in a RR501 transceiver module and was able to control X10 devices and send commands to Indigo right away."

How did you set this up? Did you add the RR501 as a device in Indigo, and if so, what kind of X10 device? How did you get Indigo to respond to events from the RR501?

I've been totally unsuccessful getting the RR501 to work with Indigo. The relay in it (a pseudo- appliance module) does not respond to X10 commands sent from Indigo, but it responds just fine to on/off commands sent to it from my old X10 MT522 MiniTimer. And of course to commands sent from my X10 mini-remote.

Thanks for your help/advice.

Posted on
Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:57 am
matt (support) offline
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 21411
Joined: Jan 27, 2003
Location: Texas

Re: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

All X10 ON/OFF commands are the same, so it doesn't matter which model you choose (but I would choose the Generic Appliance type). The problem is either the signal path is different between the PowerLinc and the RR501 than the MT522 and RR501, or the PowerLinc's X10 signal is not as strong (which is a common issue). Try plugging the RR501 into the same circuit/outlet as the PowerLinc, and I'll bet it works.

Image

Posted on
Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:01 pm
NucDoc offline
Posts: 6
Joined: Nov 11, 2014

Re: [ANSWERED]: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

I'd echo Matt's comments. I've had to move the RR501 to different plugs (on different circuits) to get it to work - otherwise no issues. I've now set up an W800RF receiver so don't need the RR501. The W800RF is a better receiver with much larger range and plugs straight into my computer (with a Keyspan USB adapter and appropriate drivers). It also works on All house codes (other X10 wireless receiver modules either work on house code A or the house code they are set for, as is the case with the RR501). I have 3 different X10 remotes, and a motion sensor each set to a different house code. The wireless X10 remotes are very reliable and I like them better then the mini insteon ones as they have on/off rather than toggle. Other than the weird little glitch that started this post, everything works very well.

Posted on
Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:17 pm
kyphos offline
Posts: 54
Joined: Dec 17, 2014

Re: [ANSWERED]: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

@Nucdoc & Matt,
Thanks very much for your replies.

Matt - you were right!! If the RR501 is plugged into the same outlet as the PowerLinc, it works. The RR501 appliance relay will receive X10 commands sent by the PowerLinc, and the PowerLinc (hence, Indigo) will receive X10 commands sent from my X10 RF remote (via the RR501). However, this isn't a solution since the RF transmitter in the little X10 remote isn't powerful enough to reach the RR501 when it's down in the basement (next to the PowerLinc).

I've spent a few hours moving various X10 units around to various receptacles and testing operation. Based on my experiments, I've concluded that the PowerLinc has a weaker X10 PLC transmitter than my 20-year old MT522 MiniTimer. And a less sensitive X10 receiver than any of my old X10 lamp and appliance modules. The X10 gear works pretty much anywhere I plug them in around my house. In contrast, the PowerLinc is significantly impaired.

Matt - you wrote "the PowerLinc's X10 signal is not as strong (which is a common issue)"
Have you found that all PowerLincs have weak X10 signals, or just a lot of them? IE, is my unit from a defective batch, or is this shortcoming a fundamental design defect? If the former, perhaps I should return the unit I purchased and request a replacement from Amazon. Or am I likely to get another with marginal X10 performance?

Frankly, so far I'm pretty disappointed in the PowerLinc and in SmartHome. The Insteon PLC technology is quite similar to X10. X10 uses a carrier at 120 kHz to modulate the bits onto the power line. Insteon uses 131.65 kHz. If SmartHome's implementation of the X10 interface is deficient (i.e. weak signal), I don't have a lot of confidence that their Insteon circuitry is any better. Or that their Quality Control can be depended upon to ensure dependable products get to market. Insteon is 25 years newer than X10. I would have expected X10 performance that was at least as good as my existing X10 controllers. (to be sure, I was not expecting perfection: I'm well aware of the limitations and constraints inherent in PLC technology).

NucDoc - it sounds like you have a fairly extensive Insteon installation, as well as a bunch of X10 devices. Should I be concerned about Insteon's 'fundamentals'. Based on a couple of days experience with Indigo, I quite like it, but I'm on the fence whether to start pouring money into more Insteon gear given my experience with the PowerLinc. Your insights would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

:arrow: Indigo 2023.1.1, macOS 10.13.6 (High Sierra), Mac mini5,1 (Intel Core i5), PowerLinc 2413U

Posted on
Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:41 pm
matt (support) offline
Site Admin
User avatar
Posts: 21411
Joined: Jan 27, 2003
Location: Texas

Re: [ANSWERED]: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

I do believe that the X10 signal strength of the 2413U can vary. I also know that some malfunction and don't send (or receive) X10 signals at all, but still send/receive INSTEON fine. That is probably one of the most common malfunctions actually (although that is relative to other malfunctions, it still doesn't happen often).

INSTEON is definitely way more reliable than X10 at the power line / signal level. It might be about the same kHz but is uses totally different modulation, and the commands are all ACK'd and hopped between modules if needed (and INSTEON uses RF as well). Z-Wave is also much more reliable.

Image

Posted on
Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:15 am
NucDoc offline
Posts: 6
Joined: Nov 11, 2014

Re: [ANSWERED]: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

I used to have a limited X10 system, but I renovated my house about 2 years ago and put in a bunch of Insteon devices (about 40) all run by Indego on a Mac Mini. The Insteon is WAY more reliable than the X10, although not perfect. I only recently added in the X10 and only because the insteon remotes (such as the 2342-232) are a bit lame, and I had 3 old X10 remotes just sitting in a box. You can do some really nice things with Insteon /Indego combination (Christmas lights, mood lighting, security, etc). The newer dual band insteon devices with RF are better than the older models - alas I have a lot of the older models (fortunately no longer available).

Posted on
Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:03 am
kyphos offline
Posts: 54
Joined: Dec 17, 2014

Re: [ANSWERED]: X10 Wireless Not Working with Insteon Scenes

Thanks!

:arrow: Indigo 2023.1.1, macOS 10.13.6 (High Sierra), Mac mini5,1 (Intel Core i5), PowerLinc 2413U

Page 1 of 1

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests