Plugins whats still being developed and whats not

[jay (support)]

Just had a look around the forum structure and file library.

How about:

# Everyone who has a plugin subforum has write access to the 3rd party plugins > plugin lists subfolder.

# Move the User Contributions > Plugins folder under 3rd party plugins

# Any of us regulars can (voluntarily) add new plugins to the /Plugin Lists on behalf of newbies who don't have their own subfolder (and thus write rights). They can be listed in multiple lists as appropriate

# Abandon the file library as a search tool; keep it as a hosting place for new users if you want, but I'd maybe get rid and keep the forum as the central index.

# Replace "File Library" with "3rd party plugins" on the main menu on the website, linked directly into the plugin LISTS subforum.

Better idea: everyone who has plugins put them in the File Library where they're easily searchable and dump the manually intensive maintenance of the Plugin List post?

I haven't opened up the maintenance of the plugin list post because 1) phpbb doesn't natively support tables 2) so I had to "invent" tables within the constraints of phpbb extendability such that 3) it is the ugliest markup on the planet and is fragile and easily breakable. It is truly the ugliest of hacks I've ever seen...

[jay (support)]

Keeping it as a separate part of the website (outside the forums) makes it easier to upgrade the search capabilities or make it into a true plugin store later.

Exactly. It's currently a Django app (our website is all Django) so it gives us a lot of flexibility. Including, at some point, the ability to throw an API around the app that would enable client(s) and the server to talk to it. It can gradually morph into the plugin store (or at the very least be the initial source of data for a separate plugin store if that should be more appropriate when the time comes).

But I think the name should be changed to "Plugin and File Library". That would make it much more obvious what it's for.

I'm totally fine with that. The UI also isn't beautiful (understatement) so there's definitely some room for improvement there and I'm open to suggestions along that front as well (but note - no radical makeovers for the moment).

What you are describing is the File Library (minus a few features).

I realize that - because the File Library does indeed a "beginners job" at what is needed. What I see as the deficiencies of it are:

• No direct link to it from Indigo; at a minimum perhaps make the link "3rd Party Plugins List" go to the file library as I've heard quite a few times over that people don't seem to find it
• No last updated and version number - which developers aren't going to update, which is the major part of my first suggestion
• Poorly named, but the other suggestion would improve that
• Hard to browse - maybe more categories? For example, "Hardware Integration" could be broken down a bit further
• Maybe a filter (alongside keyword) to show only plugins versus other types
• Drop the plugin list forum stuff - too many descrepancies and users may not see the File Library if they see that or vice versa (as they will assume it is definitive and stop looking)

I have at least two that have been "pending" for a LONG time if you want to push those through approval process. I can update the descriptions as they are sorely out of date.

I do still think something slightly integrated into Indigo with a one-click download to the latest and auto-version checking (if enabled by the plugin) would be better, but that's okay.

Adam

[jay (support)]

I realize that - because the File Library does indeed a "beginners job" at what is needed. What I see as the deficiencies of it are:

• No direct link to it from Indigo; at a minimum perhaps make the link "3rd Party Plugins List" go to the file library as I've heard quite a few times over that people don't seem to find it
• No last updated and version number - which developers aren't going to update, which is the major part of my first suggestion
• Poorly named, but the other suggestion would improve that
• Hard to browse - maybe more categories? For example, "Hardware Integration" could be broken down a bit further
• Maybe a filter (alongside keyword) to show only plugins versus other types
• Drop the plugin list forum stuff - too many descrepancies and users may not see the File Library if they see that or vice versa (as they will assume it is definitive and stop looking)

Great, we'll think about those changes since they don't require a change to Indigo itself. Not sure there's much we can do about #2 until we can figure out how to pull data from GitHub, but we can certainly start addressing the others. The big issue here is the Indigo-side integration. That's non-trivial work that we need to prioritize against other things. Some of the above can be done quickly so doesn't require a lot of tradeoff.

Regarding the last item, here's the rub: developers are going to have to take the responsibility to add their plugins and keep them up-to-date (hopefully GitHub integration will help with that, but not in all circumstances and not immediately). So if I stop maintaining the plugin list and developers don't add Library entries for their plugins, then it's going to be even harder for users to find plugins. I'm all for doing that - but I just want to point out that it becomes a developer responsibility rather than an Indigo Domotics responsibility.

I have at least two that have been "pending" for a LONG time if you want to push those through approval process. I can update the descriptions as they are sorely out of date.

Odd - we're usually pretty good about approving stuff immediately when it comes in. It's possible that the email notification we get when something is submitted got lost. I'll look into it.

I do still think something slightly integrated into Indigo with a one-click download to the latest and auto-version checking (if enabled by the plugin) would be better, but that's okay.

And we agree that is the ultimate goal. But it's a lot of work (more than you think) so it requires we do a more thorough evaluation of the tradeoffs.

Not sure there's much we can do about #2 until we can figure out how to pull data from GitHub, but we can certainly start addressing the others.

Their API is pretty stable and easy to use, but of course requires the user and repository name which would have to be entered/captured by the developer. The code itself is probably trivial, the execution of trying to capture all that from developers probably not!

Regarding the last item, here's the rub: developers are going to have to take the responsibility to add their plugins and keep them up-to-date (hopefully GitHub integration will help with that, but not in all circumstances and not immediately). So if I stop maintaining the plugin list and developers don't add Library entries for their plugins, then it's going to be even harder for users to find plugins. I'm all for doing that - but I just want to point out that it becomes a developer responsibility rather than an Indigo Domotics responsibility.

Wouldn't it be the same or less work for you to add an entry into the file library (instead of you putting it in the forum/post) if the developer didn't do it?

Odd - we're usually pretty good about approving stuff immediately when it comes in. It's possible that the email notification we get when something is submitted got lost. I'll look into it.

I just noticed they were still pending when looking through the library to give the feedback and I know that has been a long time since I submitted it. No big deal, but please do push it through whenever you have a moment to investigate. Obviously not a rush.

As I've moved my plugins to GitHub, I've started creating individual GhostXML Plugin devices that are linked to the GitHub API. At a minimum, I create one device per plugin which yields a lot of useful information. I haven't done it yet, but there may be some value in creating a control page per plugin (a sort of dashboard) that would include some statistics and whatnot.

I might even even make a few charts with the Matplotlib Plugin to track information on GitHub about the Matplotlib Plugin. If that causes a rip in the fabric of time, apologies in advance.

Hi Jay

This is a common problem with software that has an open API for plugins (well, it's also an issue in the iOS App Store) - you never really know whether the developer of the plugin is still working on it or not. There are several strategies that we're considering, including a plugin store and Github integration, that would at least provide a way for the Indigo Server to know if/when there's an update available for a plugin.

This only solves one issue though. I don't really know of a way to know if a plugin is being actively developed/supported other than for a user to visibly watch a plugin's forum (or repo) to see the activity. Other than that, though, there just isn't really a good reliable way of knowing.

We are certainly open to suggestions.

From my own experience, the problem is deeper than just pluggins. Maybe it is just me but I find it incredibly difficult to find information. I LOVE indigo and am using it on a daily basis to control my home but I dread coming to the indigo sites to try and get news and information.

For example, there is one feature that is very important to me (being able to change the wake interval for battery devices from a schedule). It has been on your "to do" list for many years. I mainly come to see if there is any progress on that one feature, but finding that isn't easy. How about publishing the list along with a release date or version so we can see what is planned?

This thread is really drawing attention to a general problem.

As for plugins, I would think GitHub is the answer, just as you suggest, it makes it very easy to see if a project is dead. I'm not excited about a store. Although it might provide an incentive for plugin writers stores don't seem to succeed in practice. Most open source stores end up being more trouble than they are worth. The revenue they generate is too small to make it worth the time and complexity. Github is extremely well known to developers and easy to navigate. I'm guessing that indigo mainly appeals to more advanced computer users, people who are probably familiar with GitHub.

A really cool idea that I just invented, and I think I might patent, is to have a button simply labelled "Download".

Do you think the idea would take off?

(Seriously, end users shouldn't be exposed to terms like, and have to navigate, "master branch" and "fork". They should only see the version list and a download button for each, full stop.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

YES!!!!!!!! This is such an obvious and important suggestion I'm not sure why it even had to be said. A list of all plugins with a link to the description and the links for:

1. One click to install
2. One click to remove
3. One click to update

Let people "like" plugins so the popular ones float to the top of the list. Let people leave comments on the plugins.

If these already exists I'm sure I can't find it.

Just had a look around the forum structure and file library.

How about:

# Everyone who has a plugin subforum has write access to the 3rd party plugins > plugin lists subfolder.

# Move the User Contributions > Plugins folder under 3rd party plugins

# Any of us regulars can (voluntarily) add new plugins to the /Plugin Lists on behalf of newbies who don't have their own subfolder (and thus write rights). They can be listed in multiple lists as appropriate

# Abandon the file library as a search tool; keep it as a hosting place for new users if you want, but I'd maybe get rid and keep the forum as the central index.

# Replace "File Library" with "3rd party plugins" on the main menu on the website, linked directly into the plugin LISTS subforum.

Better idea: everyone who has plugins put them in the File Library where they're easily searchable and dump the manually intensive maintenance of the Plugin List post?

I haven't opened up the maintenance of the plugin list post because 1) phpbb doesn't natively support tables 2) so I had to "invent" tables within the constraints of phpbb extendability such that 3) it is the ugliest markup on the planet and is fragile and easily breakable. It is truly the ugliest of hacks I've ever seen...

Errrrr ... What is the "file library"? Where is the "file library"?

I am 10,000% behind removing plugins from the forum. I don't know about other people but I find the forum to be pretty much useless to navigate and follow threads. Can't stand this place.

Responding to three bits of SGBirch's posts (as I'm on phone and multiquoting isn't easy)

I'm sure battery wake interval can be set on schedule now (long hand) if you want; I'll double check but I think it's based on parameter setting which can be done under actions.

Your comment on one-click install is at odds with your comment on a store. The way to get a one-click install/uninstall from a list of plugins in Indigo is via a store-like interface.

Info: Website > Support > Documentation

File library: Website > Support > File Library


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

For example, there is one feature that is very important to me (being able to change the wake interval for battery devices from a schedule). It has been on your "to do" list for many years.

I'm sure battery wake interval can be set on schedule now (long hand) if you want; I'll double check but I think it's based on parameter setting which can be done under actions.

I was wrong about wake interval being set by parameter.

I've just knocked up 90% of a plugin that does one thing - sets the wake interval for a device. I've gotta dash out now but when I'm back later I'll finish it and send you it.

Peter

How about publishing the list along with a release date or version so we can see what is planned?

I wouldn't be able to foster a guess, but I'd suggest that it's extremely unusual for any company to publish a list of plans and release dates. Some companies do use communities to learn about what's not working well and what users value most (like JetBrains Issue Track or JIRA or countless others). These systems allow for users to 'like' suggestions which helps prioritize the most popular things. But beyond something like that, Matt and Jay have answered this question many times and they won't publish a schedule.

As for plugins, I would think GitHub is the answer, just as you suggest, it makes it very easy to see if a project is dead. I'm not excited about a store. Although it might provide an incentive for plugin writers stores don't seem to succeed in practice. Most open source stores end up being more trouble than they are worth. The revenue they generate is too small to make it worth the time and complexity.

I think it's a bad idea for Matt and Jay to make too many demands of developers. I've been moving my plugins over to GitHub because it has long-term benefits for me. I've only started the process and have several plugins to go, but doing this has taken many hours of my time and there are many more hours of work in front of me. This work doesn't include any new functionality for my plugins, takes away from the time I get to spend with my own automation, and I'm spending over $80US per year of my own money for my trouble. I'd probably still offer my plugins for free in an Indigo store because I develop for fun. I've had numerous users ask me to make a "Buy Me a Beer" button or PayPal link available and I've resisted that too.

I don't comment on most of the suggestion threads and maybe now I'm just being touchy, but I'd rather not be told how I should develop stuff that I give away for free.

Errrrr ... What is the "file library"? Where is the "file library"?

From the Support Link at the top of this page, click on File Library.
There's also a central forum post of known plugins.

I don't know about other people but I find the forum to be pretty much useless to navigate and follow threads. Can't stand this place.

Comments like this aren't helpful. If you have ideas for suggestions on how to make improvements, please make them. Do you have any examples of user forums that you do like? If you're having trouble finding information, ask a question. These forums are teeming with gracious, generous people who are willing to help. I find them a joy to use, and can't think of another forum I frequent where the company and the users are so engaged, positive and helpful.

[matt (support)]

I was wrong about wake interval being set by parameter.

I've just knocked up 90% of a plugin that does one thing - sets the wake interval for a device. I've gotta dash out now but when I'm back later I'll finish it and send you it.

It sounds like you already have this figured out, but if not I outlined the raw commands to set the wake interval on this post for sgbirch.

It sounds like you already have this figured out, but if not I outlined the raw commands to set the wake interval on this post for sgbirch.

Thanks - I've got the commands, but need to refresh my University studies of MSB / LSB (14 years ago!) to make up the values

Peter

I've just knocked up 90% of a plugin that does one thing

Dang, man, that's going to be one UGLY baby!