Include Methods

I will be adding Z-Wave to my setup next week and could use some clarification. After years of using Insteon where you add a device by just entering an address into Indigo, I'm not clear on what the equivalent process is with Z-Wave and Indigo.

- Once a device is connected to power, does it just start broadcasting to the stick and Indigo sees it, or do you have to push a button on the device?

- Will the process be different for battery vs non-battery devices?

- One device in particular that I need inclusion instructions for is the American Std (Trane) 624 thermostat.

The following will be my devices to start me off:

Zooz ZST39 (800 usb stick)
Zooz ZSE44 (800 temp sensor)
Zooz ZSE18 (800 motion sensor)
Zooz ZAC38 (800 range extender)
American Standard ACONT624 (stat)

None of these devices are installed yet, so I can't see any dialog boxes to help visualize what to expect.

Thanks

it's funny to hear this because after years of using indigo with insteon devices, i have a completely different procedure and i never enter the device address into indigo. instead, i simply create a new device in indigo (apple-shift-d), select device type "Insteon" from the menu, then a box pops up that allows you to type in the address, but at that point, i just hold the button on the insteon device and the address pops up there w/o me having to type it.

as for Z-wave, i think the procedure can be roughly the same. you create a new device in Indigo (apple-shift-d), select "Z-wave" from the menu, then for most devices (except locks), hit the button that says "New with encryption disabled". then do whatever magic incantation on your z-wave device that puts it into program mode (***), and sit back and wait for Indigo to recognize and handshake with your device. The "Sync using node:" pulldown menu at the bottom of the window will be populated with a newly created z-wave device address (or "node" as i guess we're calling it). then hit "Sync" and indigo will complete the process.

*** note: i've experienced a lot of different variations on how different z-wave devices put themselves into program mode. sometimes there's a set button on the device. sometimes this device is hidden so as to require a paper clip or something to reach in and push it. sometimes there is a button that has to be pushed multiple times. other times, a button has to be pushed and held. sometimes the device provides feedback (such as a blinking LED or a beep) to let you know you've entered program mode. some devices (including newer Zooz brand battery-powered devices) sometimes automatically go into inclusion mode (aka "program mode") when they're first powered up, either by plugging them in, putting in a battery, or pulling out a little plastic tab that is preventing the battery that's already installed from making contact. sometimes a device will give you some way of confirming that a device has successfully completed the inclusion process.

note also: if a device has ever been used previously, it may already have been included in a z-wave network (yours or some other network). in that case, you may need to "exclude" the device before trying to do the inclusion process. excluding can be done by telling indigo to exclude the device (Indigo>Interfaces>Z-Wave>Start Exclusion Mode menu item) or indirectly by completing some kind of "factory reset" on the device (which may involve some different gesture of multi-press, press-and-hold, etc. and may or may not give confirmation or feedback).

yet another note: most modern z-wave devices should support network inclusion, meaning that devices in your z-wave mesh should be able to assist with communication if needed during the inclusion process. still, i've sometimes found devices that are stubborn and which for whatever reason, i can't seem to include when they are located far away from my z-wave controller/hub device. so if all else fails and you are having trouble getting inclusion to work for a device, a fallback is to physically transport the device to within a few feet of your z-wave controller (zst39, in your case) and try it there. ... that this especially sucks if the device is a hardwired switch, thermostat, door lock, skylight motor, or some other device that's not easily relocatable.

it's funny to hear this because after years of using indigo with insteon devices, i have a completely different procedure and i never enter the device address into indigo. instead, i simply create a new device in indigo (apple-shift-d), select device type "Insteon" from the menu, then a box pops up that allows you to type in the address, but at that point, i just hold the button on the insteon device and the address pops up there w/o me having to type it..

Do you access Indigo from a laptop which would allow you to roam to a device? Otherwise why would you want to go to the Insteon device just to press a button?

...then do whatever magic incantation on your z-wave device that puts it into program mode

My office where I access Indigo is not in my main house, so to be clear, I will need to start the process at my office computer and then run into the house to press a button before it times out? That sounds like fun.

...so if all else fails and you are having trouble getting inclusion to work for a device, a fallback is to physically transport the device to within a few feet of your z-wave controller (zst39, in your case) and try it there. ... that this especially sucks if the device is a hardwired switch, thermostat, door lock, skylight motor, or some other device that's not easily relocatable.

My point exactly, how do you move a hardwired device or one that is only accessible via ladder? I'm less concerned about not being able to include, but more the process options of running around pushing buttons vs doing it all right from Indigo, if that's even possible.

My confusion comes from the Indigo Wiki that states "You can usually include and exclude devices directly from Indigo, Older versions require you to take your interface to the device to include/exclude it using the button on the interface (i.e., Indigo 6)"

Do you access Indigo from a laptop which would allow you to roam to a device? Otherwise why would you want to go to the Insteon device just to press a button?

mostly, yes. i do access indigo client running on a laptop. indigo touch (IOS client) is mostly not designed to do the things you need to add/configure devices, otherwise it would be nice to be able to do this from a mobile device i carry with me all the time like an iPhone.

i would also note that insteon devices such as motion sensors can't be added/configured except by pushing physical buttons on the device, so there is no way to deal with them from a central location (except by physically collecting all the devices and carrying them to central location within reach so you can push and hold their set buttons).

My office where I access Indigo is not in my main house, so to be clear, I will need to start the process at my office computer and then run into the house to press a button before it times out? That sounds like fun.

not sure i completely understand your configuration in terms of where things are located... however to my knowledge, z-wave devices can not in general be turned on and/or plugged in, then just left sitting there waiting for a server to reach out and to do an inclusion at a later time. so this may be a problem for your use case. z-wave is different from insteon in this regard. insteon devices as i know you know have unique fixed address (essentially like a MAC address) hard-coded into them. z-wave devices afaik do not - instead, they are given their addresses dynamically during the inclusion process. my experience is that when you push buttons or whatever to put a z-wave device into inclusion mode, the device goes into inclusion mode, starts listening for a controller, then if no controller handshakes with it within some time period (like typically 30 seconds to 1 minute?) it times out and exits inclusion mode. i think this is considered part of z-wave's basic approach to security - i.e. part of the design that prevents inexperienced customers from buying devices and having others (nefarious neighbors or warflyers) take control of them.

My point exactly, how do you move a hardwired device or one that is only accessible via ladder? I'm less concerned about not being able to include, but more the process options of running around pushing buttons vs doing it all right from Indigo, if that's even possible.

i have z-wave skylights and other devices where i had to use a laptop to tell Indigo to put my z-wave controller (z-stick) into inclusion mode, then literally climb up a ladder and hit the program button on the device, wait, then check indigo logs to see whether the inclusion was successful. frustratingly, in many cases, it has taken multiple repetitions before i succeed. in other cases, where instructions or device feedback were not clear or where i made some initial mistake in setup, i've found it necessary to do hard-resets of devices or exclusions of the devices before i ultimately got things working.

My confusion comes from the Indigo Wiki that states "You can usually include and exclude devices directly from Indigo, Older versions require you to take your interface to the device to include/exclude it using the button on the interface (i.e., Indigo 6)"

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if there's a way to do exactly this - meaning to include a z-wave device (let's just use a z-wave in-wall dimmer switch as a concrete example) without being in physical proximity of the switch, i don't know how to do it. it is possible that i'm simply uninformed of features of newest generations of z-wave devices, and for example, there might be a way to scan a QR code on the back of a switch and do a purely over-the-network inclusion process with that device, but if so, i'm unaware.

After years of using Insteon where you add a device by just entering an address into Indigo, I'm not clear on what the equivalent process is with Z-Wave and Indigo.

Be sure to check out the wiki page on managing a Z-Wave network. There's lots of useful information there.

https://wiki.indigodomo.com/doku.php?id=indigo_2023.2_documentation:managing_z-wave_devices

...otherwise it would be nice to be able to do this from a mobile device i carry with me all the time like an iPhone.

You can make a simple control page to handle this.

1. Create three buttons called "include", "exclude", and "exit".
2. Attach a server action to each button that runs an embedded Python script.
3. Within the script window, add the appropriate Python server command:

Code: Select all

# Use one of the following for each button

# include
indigo.zwave.enterInclusionMode(useEncryption=False)  # or True if appropriate

# exclude
indigo.zwave.enterExclusionMode()

# exit
indigo.zwave.exitInclusionExclusionMode()


Screenshot 2024-03-12 at 6.35.11 AM.png (73.08 KiB) Viewed 375 times

...otherwise it would be nice to be able to do this from a mobile device i carry with me all the time like an iPhone.

You can make a simple control page to handle this.

that's a good tip and definitely can help out in situations where you're on a ladder trying to get a particular new z-wave device to talk to indigo, allowing one to use an iPhone where otherwise either a laptop would have been required or you'd have to get down the ladder and hustle to the location of your Indigo server within ~30 seconds.

it is still true however that Indigo Touch doesn't provide basic operations for adding/configuring new devices. for example, there is no "+" button for adding a device.

connecting back to the OP's issue... adding and including a z-wave device in indigo entails:

• create the device. (this currently can be done only in the Indigo app, afaik)
• perform z-wave inclusion on the device. this currently requires two steps to be performed within 30-60 seconds:
  
  • initiate z-wave inclusion process on the z-wave controller (done via Indigo app or control page as per DaveL17's suggestion)
    
  • initiate inclusion on the device (via a physical gesture such as button-push).
• tell Indigo (app) to "sync" with the device

the above is the process for adding a single device. technically it is not strictly necessary to interleave these steps in the situation where you're entering multiple devices. you could for example do a bunch of z-wave inclusions (even via your iPhone if you use DaveL17's suggestion). THEN, use the Indigo app to create devices and sync each new device by manually selecting from a list of already-included z-wave addresses via the "Sync using node" pulldown menu. this requires that you to "take notes" such that you keep track for each device what z-wave address each device gets during the sync process and its location/description so you can later create, name, and configure the device in indigo.

while this might be a convenience in multi-device setup that cuts down on the amount of back and forth required to the server, it does not fundamentally change things w.r.t. CraigM's core issue - that is: including z-wave devices into Indigo will still require the user to make physical contact with each device. that is not an Indigo issue per se, but is really something fundamental to how z-wave works.

it is still true however that Indigo Touch doesn't provide basic operations for adding/configuring new devices. for example, there is no "+" button for adding a device.

The Indigo Touch app wasn't originally designed to be a replacement for the desktop client app. Historically, one could take the Z-Stick to where the device was located and include it in situ. Later Z-Sticks eliminated the include/exclude button in favor of NWI (network wide inclusion) which resulted in the possible "run-back-to-Indigo" condition. I have found that having the client running on a laptop nearby has worked in most cases. I don't carry it up a ladder, of course.

That said, features for working with device inclusion/exclusion using mobile are on the list of suggested enhancements.

i second DaveL17's suggestion to check out the wiki page. it gives a more comprehensive coverage of z-wave inclusion that i did in my reply including some significant nuances.

for example, several z-wave controllers (such as aeotec z-stick, but afaik not Zooz ZST39) may allow you to temporarily physically remove the controller from your Indigo server machine, bring it to the location of your new z-wave device to perform the z-wave inclusion process. unfortunately, this is not a fully general solution - not all z-wave controllers support this. also this does not work for devices that require encryption.

As a "used to be only Insteon" guy, I started adding Z-Wave devices 7 years ago, and haven't looked back. While I still find adding Z-Wave devices occasionally problematic, it's really not that hard. One other huge benefit is Z-Wave networking is MUCH faster than Insteon. While I still love my Insteon KeyPads(and haven't been able to find a good Z-Wave substitute), they are almost the only thing Insteon I have left.

i recently was reminded of something i had heard/read about previously had forgotten about in the above discussion -- a technology called "SmartStart" that is part of the z-wave standard.

short description: SmartStart (SS) devices will come with a QR code printed on them. when adding/including them to your system, there will be a process of scanning the code from the device (for convenience) or equivalently by typing the code. once an SS-enabled controller has this code, it should be able to communicate with the device over z-wave protocol to perform the include/setup process. for more details on the technology, see this document from Silicon Labs.

in case it is not obvious, SS seems designed to address the exact issue/topic originally raised by CraigM in this thread.

it appears that SS came into existence roughly around 2018. if curious, you can use the "advanced search" feature on the z-wave alliance's official product registry to see what products support SS. my rough sense of the state of the market is that SS is present in all or nearly all devices being sold that use newer z-wave chips (700-series or newer).

some important caveats/complications:

• if your device did not support SS out-of-the-box, it probably never will. SS and S2 support seem to be tied to some on-chip features making support for legacy devices impractical, even setting aside issues of device firmware updates, which is a whole other can of worms and not supported in Indigo.
• SS only works for devices/controllers that use S2 security. recently in these forums, Jay stated that Indigo does not support S2 security (whether or not your hardware controller supports it). afaik, there has not been any announcement of whether it might be supported in the future and if so when that might happen. for now, even if you have a z-wave controller (z-stick) that supports S2 + SS and you buy devices that come with SS codes on them, you can not use SS for inclusion in Indigo.
• originally billed as an "alternative" method of device inclusion, SS has now migrated into being a common baseline feature of z-wave devices. SiLabs documentation suggests that SS enables, for example, devices with no buttons which further suggests that SS may be the primary or the only supported inclusion method for such devices, which implies the way is paved for z-wave devices that will be incompatible with today's Indigo ...just something to watch out for. otoh, fortunately, support for SS in the controller does not break non-SS pairing/inclusion processes (however inconvenient they may be) for existing/legacy devices. thus, backward compatibility is maintained in that sense.