Whole House Surge Protector

Does anyone have any comments on these devices?

I live in a lightning prone area (Tampa Fl) and have just started installing a few Insteon devices. My concern is when I get up to $1000 worth of powerline talking devices that one lightning strike/power surge will wipe out the logic boards and that is the ball game. Is that a valid concern? I did a bit of research and it appears that not all warranties are the same. Some apparently cover only "White Appliances" such as washer, dryer, fridge while other warranties seem to cover more...

but...

Then does that extra coverage require more 'stages' of protection such as power strips? Ughhh maybe I am getting ahead of myself =) Any advice would be appreciated.

We had terrible storms last year, and I was convinced I needed surge suppression for the Insteon stuff. I did a lot of research on whole house surge protectors -- there are tons of them on the market! -- and settled on the RayCap series, which you have probably never heard of. UL 1449 Rev 3 is the current standard against which they are tested; look it up and read it. My recollection is that you should ignore any additional surge suppression on your phone or cable TV lines as they are overkill. However, buried speaker cables, sprinkler wiring or other long-distance outdoor stuff can develop inductance loads if you have a nearby strike; jury is out as to whether anything can protect against that. Look up speaker surge protectors and you will find several models.

One must compare surge suppression capability across L-N, N-G, L-G and L-L. Here are some URLs redirecting to the UL database showing the performance of the Raycap units, and the same tables showing the performance of the Leviton and Siemens (APT) units, embedded in a note to the RayCap sales guy. Sorry the tables did not come out organized; just click on the links. You can look up any UL listed surge suppressor there. I bought the AC2100 for my peripheral panels and the AM-2080 for the whole house. My contact there was Clay Blinn, who was extremely easy to work with.

Code: Select all

 I looked at the UL listings for the SPDs you recommended below. They seem very similar in terms of performance. Also, I am assuming that the higher the Ln kA value the better? e.g. that the protector will continue to be effective and won't blow out when subjected to higher strikes?


http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=VZCA.E318440&ccnshorttitle=Surge-protective+Devices&objid=1080081472&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1078524288&sequence=1

AM2080-F-07, AM2080-T-07, AM2080-V-07   Type 2 SPD   120/240   1   L-N, L-G, N-G   600   20 kA   140
L-L   900   20 kA   280
 
AC2100-F-07, AC2100-F-NA-07   Type 2 SPD   120/240   1   L-N   600   20kA   140
N-G   600   20kA   140
L-G   1000   20kA   140
L-L   1000   20kA   254



and I agree they seem superior to the Leviton and APT offerings:
 
Leviton:  http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=VZCA.E317603&ccnshorttitle=Surge-protective+Devices&objid=1079926563&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1078524288&sequence=1

51120-1   Type 2 SPD   120/240   1   L-N   800   3KA   150
L-L   1200   3KA   300


APT: http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=VZCA.E321351&ccnshorttitle=Surge-protective+Devices&objid=1080501348&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1078524288&sequence=1







Model   


Followed
by
suffix   



Product
Type   



V
(V ac)   




Phase*   




Mode(s)@   



VPR
(V pk)   




In (kA)   




MCOV
TE/1C/040/AA   N/A   Type 2 SPD   240/120   S   L-N   700   5   150
L-G   700      150
N-G   1500      300
L-L   120      276
Note: All of the above models also represent same models with "ST" in place of "TE" and/or "X" in place of "XGA".



So my question: Given the similarity in performance on the UL testing of both the AM 2080 and the AC2100, is the only real advantage to the AM 2080 the dry contact closure capability?



The major advantage of the RayCaps, in addition to apparently excellent performance and similar price, is the availability of dry contact closures, rare in this price range. You can hook up an IOLinc and have it send you a message when the surge suppressor trips.

I just had a surge that took out 6 Insteon devices, 4 X10 devices and 6 of my powered paradigm speakers. 4 speakers came back to life with new fuses, the other 2 had to be sent to the factory for repair. All devices that died had the MOV's blown.

I now have a whole house square D suppressor.

I wish I would have seen the Raycap series, the contact closure would be very nice feature to have.

So yeah.. I'll never not have a whole house suppressor with this much invested in electronics.

Wow that is a lot of great info and I appreciate it.

“I bought the AC2100 for my peripheral panels…”
By peripheral panels do you mean ones that run say a pool pump for example? I don’t believe I have any of those unless you count the panel by my HVAC but then that ties back into the main panel anyway.

“One must compare surge suppression capability across L-N, N-G, L-G and L-L.”
I am attempting to educate myself with the meanings of these but Google has been less than helpful. Do you know of a quick and dirty explanation I can read about these?

Finally, and not holding you to anything concrete, what price point (range) should I expect for the AM2080?
Thanks again for being patient as I am spinning myself up on all of this…

Are there any Insteon signal or noise issues associated with the whole house suppressors?

If so, anything that can be done to mitigate, e.g. having a filter installed next to the suppressor?

hamw and Korey, thanks for sharing your research and advice. Looking at RayCaps now...

I just had a surge that took out 6 Insteon devices, 4 X10 devices and 6 of my powered paradigm speakers. 4 speakers came back to life with new fuses, the other 2 had to be sent to the factory for repair.

Yikes! I am sorry to hear that. I am surpised that Insteon and X10 manufacturers wouldn't at least "strong suggest" a surge suppressor as a level of mitigation.

“One must compare surge suppression capability across L-N, N-G, L-G and L-L.”

One can install a solution that sits between those wires. Then, when a surge exists, maybe 330 volts exists between each wire (view a let-through voltage on its box). And each wire is maybe 6000 volts relative to earth. Yes, three zeroes.

Surges that damage an Insteon were seeking earth ground. Nothing will stop that current. Anything that tries to stop that current only suffered an increased voltage that blows through, destructively.

Protection means current is connected to earth BEFORE it can enter the building. Anything that would protect from that current without a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth is simply putting that surge on more wires. Giving the surge even more paths to find earth destructively via an Insteaon or other nearby appliances.

Every layer of protection is only defined by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. That is earth ground. Either a protector connects that current low impedance to earth. Or that protector does nothing useful. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are absorbed.

Your primary surge protection system is installed by the utility. Pictures that demonstrated what to inspect:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Your secondary protection system is defined by how each wire in every incoming cable connects to a building earth ground. Safety ground in a receptacle is not earth ground. Each layer of protection is defined by the earth ground.

Some wires (ie cable TV) need no protectors. A hardwire from that cable to earth ground is the best protection.

The most common source of surges (AC electric) must have a 'whole house' protector rated at least 50,000 amps. To do what that hardwire does. A typical direct lightning strikes to wires down the street may be 20,000 or rarely 100,000 amps. That is a direct strike to every household appliance. Anything that makes a better connection to earth gets damaged. A 'whole house' protector must be rated for higher currents. So that lightning finds earth on a shorter (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector starts about 50,000 amps so that direct lightning strikes do not even damage a protector.

Those L-N, etc protectors are for surges that are typically not destructive. Protection already inside every appliance makes those transients (voltages between those wires) irrelevant. Your concern is the current source (ie lightning) that seeks earth ground. 'Protection' means that current creates near zero voltage because it is connected to earth BEFORE entering the building. 'Damage' means that current created a high voltage because it was permitted to go hunting inside the house.

Defined was a minimally sized 'whole house' protector. But critical is how its wire to earth is routed (for low impedance - 'less than 10 feet'). And the quality of single point earth ground.

A protector is only a connecting device. Either it connects to what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules (single point earth ground). Or it connects that surge to earth destructively via nearby appliances. Your choice. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. You decide where that energy gets absorbed.

One does need a good earth ground. That said, in my research on surge protectors I have run across many many posts by Mr. Westom on multiple sites. While I don't know him nor am I qualified to speak authoritatively on IEEE standards, differing views have been expressed by others in response to his posts. Please do a search on "westom" and "surge" for more information; it's very interesting.

Are there any Insteon signal or noise issues associated with the whole house suppressors?

If so, anything that can be done to mitigate, e.g. having a filter installed next to the suppressor?

hamw and Korey, thanks for sharing your research and advice. Looking at RayCaps now...

I haven't had any problems with signal issues with these surge protectors. I have a total of 5: 2 on the main panels, one each on an AC panel (4 AC units), the garage and a pool. There are 5 or 6 access points scattered through the house, as well as 90 Insteon devices and several filterlincs on plug-in surge protectors. Together these may compensate for any attenuation by the whole house surge protectors. At this point, I think any signal issues are usually collisions.

“One must compare surge suppression capability across L-N, N-G, L-G and L-L.”
I am attempting to educate myself with the meanings of these but Google has been less than helpful. Do you know of a quick and dirty explanation I can read about these?

That's just the voltage at which the surge suppressor will divert the current to ground. The lower the number the better. That said, the new UL 1449 Rev3, IIRC, is much more stringent than the Rev 1 or 2. So, the voltages in Rev 3 are actually numerically higher than the Rev 1 or 2 surge suppressors' listings, for instance 600v vs 300v. When comparing suppressors one MUST look at the revision version.

I can't recall the price of the AM2080 off hand, but look up the price on the RayCap site, talk to them nicely and maybe they'll knock off 20%.

I can't recall the price of the AM2080 off hand, but look up the price on the RayCap site, talk to them nicely and maybe they'll knock off 20%.

Glad to hear that attenuation isn't a problem.

Not sure if that model number is currently listed on their site. Is it one of these?

I can't recall the price of the AM2080 off hand, but look up the price on the RayCap site, talk to them nicely and maybe they'll knock off 20%.

Glad to hear that attenuation isn't a problem.

Not sure if that model number is currently listed on their site. Is it one of these?

You are looking at the Rayvoss, which is a unique suppressor design but very expensive. Here's the initial quote from Clay (who is no longer there, btw) for the Rayvoss and the ACData 2080:

*********************

Rayvoss

120-2S-M3-3-06-A-H $1,015.00 Each



AC Data

AM2080-V-07 $299.00 Each
http://www.raycapsurgeprotection.com/wp ... -Final.pdf

**********************

The smaller units were the AC2100-F-07. Can't find the link to those right now.

click here for the AC Data section of their website: http://www.raycapsurgeprotection.com/ac ... /all-mode/

Clay assured me that the ACData was perfectly adequate for my needs; couldn't justify the difference in price, and the UL sheets seemed to indicate the AM2080 was pretty good.

Clay,

Thanks for the quick feedback and the information. I realize the StrikeSorb is really a different approach and is likely much better; it is more expensive. Can't remember if I asked you this, but is it recommended to place a surge protector on each subpanel, eg one away from the house in a garage?

It looks like the AM2080-V-07 would be best for my application. However, in looking at the specs, that is a 120/240 4 wire unit? Is that correct for a single phase panels? Just making sure; could you also send installation instructions?

Appreciate your getting back,

Ham

----- Original Message -----
From: @raycapinc.com>
To: Ham
Sent: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 21:18:28 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: RE: Call Follow Up

Sure Hamilton, many reasons.

This is traditional surge protection. We make an entire line of these products. These all contain basically the same product. Small, low grade metal oxide varistors which alone handle very little energy. The standard practice is to attach multiple varistors to a PCB and in theory they share the load of any incoming transient. In practice this is rarely the case as the varistors are not precision components and have varying degrees of capability. Typically the varistors most closely associated with the phase wire carrying the transient fail first.

Here is the important part. To pass UL, traditional surge protection components are fused. The reason for this is the product has to be able to conduct certain levels of surge current without igniting or they need to be able to disconnect. Once they disconnect, the load is no longer protected.

Strikesorb, the engine in Rayvoss, does not disconnect and does not require a fuse. Instead of going to an open, Strikesorb goes to a short, opens an associated breaker and removes the load from the line. You are not able to reset the associated breaker until the shorted module has been replaced. Your load is fully protected at all times.

I typically do not recommend Rayvoss for home protection due to the cost. In the case of the product you have indicated from XXXXX we are not comparing apples to apples. I have attached a couple of units that would be more in line with what you have indicated. Both of these units are superior products to the XXXXX. The AM2080 was designed for Verizon for use on their cell sites. You can imagine their requirements were quite stringent. I have also attached a white paper about Strikesorb that describes the technology much more eloquently than I have done here.

I can't recall the price of the AM2080 off hand, but look up the price on the RayCap site, talk to them nicely and maybe they'll knock off 20%.

Glad to hear that attenuation isn't a problem.

Not sure if that model number is currently listed on their site. Is it one of these?

Ah Ha!
I believe what we are looking for is in this pdf...

http://www.raycapsurgeprotection.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/G02-00-002-All-Mode-V-Series_A-Final.pdf

I have a total of 5: 2 on the main panels...

Ham,
Should I read that as one for each phase or is my reasoning off?

I have a total of 5: 2 on the main panels...

Ham,
Should I read that as one for each phase or is my reasoning off?

A single surge protector will handle all your phases. I have a standard meter that feeds two **separate** panels. Weird design but not unique for a 400 amp service, but I therefore needed separate protectors. I looked into the meter treater solutions but was dissatisfied with their load handling. I was not satisfied either with what the electric company had to offer.

The smaller units were the AC2100-F-07. Can't find the link to those right now.

Here is the pdf for the AC2100

http://www.raycapsurgeprotection.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/G02-00-001-AC1100-AC2100-AC4100-Series-Final.pdf