Cynical Denon - Denon and Marantz AV Receiver control

The network connection succeeds but your Denon doesn't say anything at all. There's a bug in the plugin where it doesn't recognize this as an obvious problem and just assumes the default (single zone, standby). Ten minutes later, because you checked the keep alive checkbox, the plugin finally realizes that it's heard nothing from the Denon, gives you an error message, and tries to reset the connection. That doesn't help.

I'll fix the initialization bug, after which you'll get an immediate error when you turn on the plugin. But the actual problem is that your receiver sends no data - or else, your serial interface box drops it. I can't tell which one it is. Please double-check that your serial port settings on the network box are those expected by your Denon; that's the most likely problem.

Perform a processor reset on your receiver. Sometimes the Denons just go into a funk and stop talking.

If you have a spare USB serial adapter, try to use it (instead of the Startec). If your connection is good (and your Denon isn't funked out), then just frobbing the volume control should produce output no matter what.

That's pretty much all I can do to help here. Let me know how it goes.

Cheers
-- perry

I believe the problem is that the port is inactive. That is either port settings or the Denon is not sending any data and making the port active. The Russound shows the port active and before I got the right setting there and it was inactive, no commands worked. That is what makes me conclude that the problem is that the port is not active. Startech support is not much help. They asked me what version of Windows I have. They think I need a pc driver, which I know I do not. My next step is to compare the Russound and Denon Startech port settings one more time. Maybe I overlooked something, or maybe Denon needs something different. I do not have another hardware connection alternative to the Startech.

I found a web site that has RS232 info for my model of Denon. It includes 18 pages of codes and commands. That tells me that my Denon should be controllable. I have pasted page one here. I don't see any clues in comparing it to the settings I have established with the Startech. Also, my settings are same as Russound which works. Do you see any clues in the serial info here? If the weekend comes up dry, I will try Denon tech support on Monday.

Look: You very likely either have a serial-connection problem, or a glitchy processor in your Denon.

Turn off all flow control in your serial setup. The Denon does not do flow control. (9600/N/1/N seems fine.)

Perform a processor reset. Look it up. You don't want to mess around for days and then find out your Denon just didn't feel like talking to you anymore.

Beyond that, you just have to go through bog-standard elimination testing - swap out one part at a time, and collect evidence. Use a USB serial adapter and some free serial-terminal program (I use CoolTerm) to make sure the Denon and your serial cable are working. Then work your way backwards through the network interface box. None of this looks like it's got much to do with the plugin; but if you worry about that, use telnet(1) in Terminal to talk directly to it.

Cheers
-- perry

I have been digging on the web and found a lot of commentary about RS232 issues with my receiver. As you said, this is definitely a connection issue but I cannot figure out where exactly the problem is. Seems that the processor is asleep but not sure how to wake it up. See below for what I found on the Denon site. Sounds like my issue, but I don't know how to issue a Standby Off command.

For some AVR receivers and some other models that have both Main and Standby Power buttons, an initial command may need to be sent first for proper control response to occur from the RS-232C port. This only happens when the Main Power button has been used to shut the system down or upon first time setup. Because main power was cut, the control system goes back to an initial start point. If Standby Power is used to turn the unit off (normal operation mode) then this condition will not occur as power to the control system has not been removed. To reinitiate RS-232C control after main power off, simply turn the receiver on and then issue a Standby Off command and serial communication will resume.

For some AVR receivers and some other models that have both Main and Standby Power buttons, an initial command may need to be sent first for proper control response to occur from the RS-232C port. This only happens when the Main Power button has been used to shut the system down or upon first time setup. Because main power was cut, the control system goes back to an initial start point. If Standby Power is used to turn the unit off (normal operation mode) then this condition will not occur as power to the control system has not been removed. To reinitiate RS-232C control after main power off, simply turn the receiver on and then issue a Standby Off command and serial communication will resume.

Well, that's precious. (Of course, issuing software updates to serial-only Denons is a nightmare for everyone involved...)

Denons have two different power commands - one for a zone, and one for "main power." They're probably referring to the latter, which switches the whole receiver between "on" and "standby" (there is no "off" really). Use the Receiver Main Power action; it should work even when the receiver isn't talking to you. I don't know if they mean to send an on or a standby; try both.

If that works, let me know and I'll build it into the error handling to help out the next guy who runs into this.

Cheers
-- perry

No luck. I am running out of things to try. I wonder if a processor reset would do it?

Aug 12, 2013 1:37:51 PM
Reloading plugin "Cynical Denon 1.5.1"
Stopping plugin "Cynical Denon 1.5.1" (pid 9062)
Cynical Denon shutdown sensed
Cynical Denon Denon Receiver stopping
Stopped plugin "Cynical Denon 1.5.1"
Starting plugin "Cynical Denon 1.5.1" (pid 9226)
Started plugin "Cynical Denon 1.5.1"
Cynical Denon mapping device "Denon Receiver" 73947687(avreceiver)
Cynical Denon Denon Receiver starting
Cynical Denon Denon Receiver connecting to host
Cynical Denon plugin starting asyn operation

Aug 12, 2013 1:39:11 PM
Cynical Denon Error Denon Receiver unavailable: (60, 'Operation timed out')

Aug 12, 2013 1:39:54 PM
Action Group Denon Mute
Cynical Denon Error ignoring set_main_power action for unready device Denon Receiver
Received INSTEON "Sunroom Thermostat" temperature changed to 79.0

Aug 12, 2013 1:40:27 PM
Action Group Denon Mute
Cynical Denon Error ignoring set_main_power action for unready device Denon Receiver

No luck. I am running out of things to try. I wonder if a processor reset would do it?

I have no idea, but you should certainly try it.

Aug 12, 2013 1:39:11 PM
Cynical Denon Error Denon Receiver unavailable: (60, 'Operation timed out')

This means the network connection could not be established. Your serial interface box didn't reject the connection, but it didn't answer either. This is not a Denon problem. It's a networking problem. You're swimming in a murky soup of different problems, and you really need to isolate them or you'll go insane.

Aug 12, 2013 1:39:54 PM
Action Group Denon Mute
Cynical Denon Error ignoring set_main_power action for unready device Denon Receiver

And of course, without a network connection you can't send a command. Get your serial box reset or whatever it takes, then try this again.

Cheers
-- perry

You are correct that I may go bonkers with this project. Thanks very much for your patience in trying to help me. I spent a lot of time with Denon today but they really didn't know much and they said to get to someone who does know a lot you have to be a dealer. Terrific. With regard to your suggestion to reset the serial device and try again, I did reset with no luck, but I went a step further. I have two of the Startech rs232/CAT5 devices. One for the Denon and one for Russound. I swapped them and re-set the IP addresses. The Russound worked perfectly. So, I have eliminated the Startech hardware as the problem. I still am not certain if the problem is Denon or Startech settings. There is a lot of discussion on denon.com about rs232 hangs, resets needed, confusion over standby, etc. that sound like could be my problem. I have a call in to two different Denon dealers I know to see if they have any ideas. One last thing: I notice some addition settings possibilities for the port. The screen shot is how the Russound is set and works, but do you recognize anything missing choice there that might be fruitful?

I worry about RS-232 flow control. The Denon docs say that they simply don't connect any flow control lines. So if the Startec expects any flow control, it will just stall. Play around with those checkboxes; I have no idea how they work...

Cheers
-- perry

Hello Perry. I am making progress, but would like to checkpoint with you if you can indulge. I have been spending a lot of time reading posts on various forums: here, micasaverde, denon, and others. This led me to try a direct connection with serial cable from my Mac to the Denon. This was made possible by my son having a serial/usb cable, since Mac has no serial port. I got the Hercules client (like hyperterminal), powered the Denon down, opened the serial port, powered up, and the Denon sent a string saying it was in Standby. I then sent it a command to change source. It worked! I then tried Mute on and off (my main objective in this project) and they worked also. Now knowing the Denon is capable of communicating, I reconnected the Startech and reloaded the plugin. It went to standby as before. So, here is what I know...

1. The Denon can send and receive commands
2. The Startech hardware is good because I tested it with the Russound
3. The serial cable is right type

What I don't know...
1. Is the problem something with the port Startech settings? I am using same as Russound and same as what works with Hercules.
2. When the plugin says "Denon Receiver is now standby", does that mean that the plugin actually communicated with the Denon and got that state? If so, could there be a bug in the plugin? I say that because the Denon is *not* in standby. The music is playing.

Any ideas on what to try next? I feel I am at the 5 yard line.

What I don't know...
1. Is the problem something with the port Startech settings? I am using same as Russound and same as what works with Hercules.

The Startech's notion of port state confuses me. This smells like some obvious-in-hindsight thing where the Startech is waiting for something to happen before declaring the port ready... but what?

2. When the plugin says "Denon Receiver is now standby", does that mean that the plugin actually communicated with the Denon and got that state? If so, could there be a bug in the plugin? I say that because the Denon is *not* in standby. The music is playing.

From previous data, you're seeing a bug in the plugin where if it doesn't see any input, it mistakenly interprets that as a Denon receiver with no values that is turned off ("standby"). That's different from having seen a message from the Denon saying it's definitely in standby. You can distinguish the two by setting denon.avr in the debug-log settings and watching for incoming messages.

Any ideas on what to try next? I feel I am at the 5 yard line.

Next, open Terminal and use telnet. Really, it's not that hard: $ telnet startech-host port-number, then twiddle the volume control and see if you get any input. If you do, it's almost certainly a bug in my plugin. If you don't, it's almost certainly a problem with your Startech configuration. At that point, you can just flip the checkboxes and try the settings (and twiddle to volume each time) until you get input...

Cheers
-- perry

I have been following the current discussion about getting an AVR-03806 to work with the Startech serial adapter and I have a comment.

I think this was mentioned a while back, but the issue sure sounds like an RS232 hand-shake issue. My guess is the Startech expects to see a high on some pin (most likely are DSR, DTR, CTS, RTS or possibly DCD -- these are, in order, found on pins 6, 4, 8, 7 & 1 ). Check the Startech manual. If the Denon does not provide a high on the appropriate pin, you can rewire* the DB9 to provide a high from some other pin.

You can also use a volt meter to look at the Russound's serial port and check the voltage on the pins noted above. Compare that to the Denon and you should have your answer.

* Since you probably do not have easy access to the internals of your Startech device, and certainly not to the Denon. You will probably need to make a small DB9-Male-DB9-Female adapter and then wire the two together as needed. Or, just get a DB9 Break-Out-Box like this one on Amazon.

According to the Denon docs, that serial port has no flow control lines at all (just Tx/Rx/Gnd). If the Startech requires an active flow control line, it'll have to be wired up. But I've never seen a serial rig that can't have flow control turned off if you know which checkbox/jumper/dip switch to wiggle...

Cheers
-- perry

The Startech port settings for flow control offer three choices None, xon/xof, or hardware. Any idea which? I have tried all three. Still can't get Denon out of Standby. I am wondering if this could be a plugin problem, Perry. I say that because the plugin reports the Denon as in standby but it is not in standby. Not sure what that means. The idea of getting into the wiring is not very appealing. Reminds me of my Heathkit days of 50+ years ago. I am attaching a screen shot of Hercules in case that might offer a clue.