Sal Soghoian Departs Apple

[jay (support)]

Sal's still fighting the good fight. Unfortunately, I don't think Apple is listening any more or he'd still be there. I don't think Apple is listening to anyone when it comes to macOS.

Maybe it's finally time for a new OS from an unexpected source. Don't know who or what, but I'm ready for something else.

I'm not sure Apple is listening to Apple when it comes to macOS. Kinda has the feel of "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand's doing." That said I don't want something new. I'm happy enough in the ecosystem I'm in.. I just want commitment to the platform.


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Maybe it's finally time for a new OS from an unexpected source. Don't know who or what, but I'm ready for something else.

No love for Linux or BSD Unix, Jay?

Terry


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[jay (support)]

No love for Linux or BSD Unix, Jay?

Nobody seems capable of creating (or has enough skin in the game to create) a reasonable consumer-level UI for it. There are several attempts, but none I've seen are good enough. It's going to take some serious dedication for someone else to build a really usable consumer UI.

Google might do it with ChromeOS, but what I've seen so far isn't there yet and, well, I'm still quite skeptical of using something from a company whose primary business is selling me as their product.

I honestly don't know the answer, but I can say that my frustration level with Apple is extremely high. Not high enough to switch to Windows or ChromeOS (yet), but higher than it's ever been in my almost 30 years being an Apple user/developer/supporter.

Maybe it's finally time for a new OS from an unexpected source. Don't know who or what, but I'm ready for something else.

Windows 10 is honestly worth a look... I have really enjoyed using it -- honestly, more so than OS X - the first time I can say that in a LONG while. Having said that, it is just so tough to totally jump platforms and re-purchase applications and find equivalent utilities, etc...

Nobody seems capable of creating (or has enough skin in the game to create) a reasonable consumer-level UI for it. There are several attempts, but none I've seen are good enough. It's going to take some serious dedication for someone else to build a really usable consumer UI.

Ubuntu is acceptable for "play", but I have to say I agree with you here -- nothing works as well as Windows / OS X in general.

Google might do it with ChromeOS

Would love to see another OS alternative, but I just don't feel it will be Chrome OS. Mostly because it is too close to a mobile-geared experience, one of the complaints many had as to OS X's direction for a while.

Ugh.. there are SOOO many bad UI decisions in Windows 10. I speak to 20 or so people a day using Windows 10 and most of them can't work out how to do basic tasks. It's like MS went out of their way to make it unintuitive. Plus still too much emphasis on touch based input when nobody is using a touch screen, nor should they be on a vertical surface.

I don't see that happening any time soon, but let's just say we have plans (and experimental alphas) that limit our dependency on technology we cannot control.

Matt ... Frankly, I am surprised you haven't already made a Linux port available - I would have thought your target demographic is likely to have an interest in Linux. I, for one, would love to put my home automation on a raspberry pi instead of the Mac Mini.

I just have a bad feeling that Apple is moving away from the development community. I was planning to update my MacBook Pro at this cycle, but they took away the key I use more than any other ... esc (because of vi).

Ugh.. there are SOOO many bad UI decisions in Windows 10. I speak to 20 or so people a day using Windows 10 and most of them can't work out how to do basic tasks. It's like MS went out of their way to make it unintuitive. Plus still too much emphasis on touch based input when nobody is using a touch screen, nor should they be on a vertical surface.

Yep, totally agree. Plus as a "server" (for things like home automation) it's even worse, The more stringent nanny keeps things from auto-running at start with elevated privileges, and even when you turn off auto updates, it will still download, install and REBOOT, with certain updates that MS decides you need.

Terry

I don't see that happening any time soon, but let's just say we have plans (and experimental alphas) that limit our dependency on technology we cannot control.

Matt ... Frankly, I am surprised you haven't already made a Linux port available - I would have thought your target demographic is likely to have an interest in Linux. I, for one, would love to put my home automation on a raspberry pi instead of the Mac Mini.

I just have a bad feeling that Apple is moving away from the development community. I was planning to update my MacBook Pro at this cycle, but they took away the key I use more than any other ... esc (because of vi).

The issue becomes one of development language choice. Obviously they can't use Objective C to port to another OS, so what to use? If they stick with C, they have to learn the less than subtle differences in C for each platform (because if they are going to change, why not support multiple platforms, to increase the long-term viability of the product). The logical choice would be something like Java or C# (on Mono) as then in theory, they only have to maintain one codebase for multiple platforms. That's probably more true with Java than Mono. I've had problems with consistant Library support across Linux/Windows/Mac with several Mono libraries. I also like that with Java, you can package the entire application with a self-contained JVM, so that any existing JVM on the machine (or none at all) has no impact on the application and it's JVM, if it even has one.

SO lets say they decide to use Java, they're still just two guys, and need to continue to support us, constantly screaming for new features, while learning Java, rewriting everything from the ground up, and testing on all the various platforms. Can it be done? Of course, but there a lot of decisions to be made for them to continue as a viable business.

Personally, I'd love to break away from Apple as my HA server OS, but not at the expense of leaving Indigo. I'm not holding my breath because I know how long it can take to re-architect an enterprise system and frankly, I'll stick around as long as it works on older macs (or unsupported virtuals).

Terry

[jay (support)]

they're still just two guys, and need to continue to support us, constantly screaming for new features, ... rewriting [not quite] everything from the ground up, and testing on all the various [potential] platforms. Can it be done? Of course, but there a lot of decisions to be made for them to continue as a viable business.

Yep, exactly

[matt (support)]

The Indigo Server was architected from the start to be very portable (it is one of the reasons why Indigo uses a client/server model). It doesn't use Objective C and uses very few Mac specific APIs. The Indigo Client (GUI), of course, uses Objective C and Cocoa and thus is very tied to the Mac. Without any further details, I'll leave it at that.

SO lets say they decide to use Java, they're still just two guys, and need to continue to support us, constantly screaming for new features, while learning Java, rewriting everything from the ground up, and testing on all the various platforms. Can it be done? Of course, but there a lot of decisions to be made for them to continue as a viable business.

Personally, I'd love to break away from Apple as my HA server OS, but not at the expense of leaving Indigo. I'm not holding my breath because I know how long it can take to re-architect an enterprise system and frankly, I'll stick around as long as it works on older macs (or unsupported virtuals).
Terry

Yeah ... I feel exactly the same about not wanting to leave Indigo, it is super cool.

But the issues about the GUI are front end issues, not server issues. My understanding is that the server is written in C++? The various discussions about different languages are tackling the front end gui, not the server. Since the architecture is client/server would it be possible to port the server to linux (think Raspberry Pi) without changing *any* of the front end software. I don't know if openzwave is used but that runs on Linux just fine.

If that was done, you would still use a mac to setup the system. Only the server would be on the pi.

I do understand that it is a tiny company .... they do a brilliant job imho.

[jay (support)]

Windows 10 is honestly worth a look... I have really enjoyed using it -- honestly, more so than OS X - the first time I can say that in a LONG while. Having said that, it is just so tough to totally jump platforms and re-purchase applications and find equivalent utilities, etc...

My SO does computer support at a large hospital and I hear nothing but the same support nightmares that have been in the Windows world for 25 years, so I'm still extremely skeptical...

My SO does computer support at a large hospital and I hear nothing but the same support nightmares that have been in the Windows world for 25 years, so I'm still extremely skeptical.

You can't fix users, keep in mind... I've had very little issues and have had FAR less complaints and questions from Windows 10 users than OS X users -- except for the updates process being too often and too slow. When it first came out I did get a bunch of "How do I do..." but as soon as I showed them the search bar to find things, they usually stop asking questions. It works as well as OS X's search now. Don't get me wrong, there are things I would have done differently and I despise the Windows Store thing, but overall I would say it is on par with OS X with this version. But I also haven't converted to it on my home computer, so clearly I am not sold on it 100%..

Ugh.. there are SOOO many bad UI decisions in Windows 10. I speak to 20 or so people a day using Windows 10 and most of them can't work out how to do basic tasks. It's like MS went out of their way to make it unintuitive. Plus still too much emphasis on touch based input when nobody is using a touch screen, nor should they be on a vertical surface.

I heard that a bunch too until I started getting them to use the search bar... then most people could get their answers super quick. In terms of changes from previous stuff that used to be easy and work, I'll agree with you on that -- such as, what the hell was wrong with being able to switch a WiFi network from the right click? Now it is buried several clicks deep w/o doing a search. But 10 is *FAR* better than Windows 8 -- I think I would prefer Win 3.1 to Win8.

But OS X isn't perfect either - I have plenty of complaints about it and its UI.

Probably overall the thing that has kept me from wanting to switch too much (aside from the hassle) has been Windows 8. If they went from Windows 7, which was very good, to Windows 8... what's to say that Windows 11 won't screw it all up again. OS X, with its quirks and things I don't like, hasn't had a huge shift in a while. You pretty much know what you are getting.

SO lets say they decide to use Java

I would run from this product as fast as possible.